|   opinions needed on powered subs in inside of floorstanding.. | Ham1Am
Jan 17, 2002 9:02 PM | | I'm considering the Boston Acoustics VR975's (or the VR965's) for my mains. I would have thought having the sub built in would be a good idea, because then deep base is coming from multiple areas, giving a better experience. A friend told me he heard it was a bad idea though.. but couldn't remember what was said about it. Is it a better idea to go with a separate sub? I only have 1 pre-out.. if I put a splitter on it, will I loose quality?
Thanks |
| re: opinions needed on powered subs in inside of floorstanding.. | steve6387
Jan 18, 2002 3:44 AM | | While I do think Bob has some good points here, I tend to be on the other side of the fence. There are certainly benefits to having fuller range mains, esp when it comes to music reproduction. But, I believe that for mains speakers (alone) to have the range to give an accurate (flat) response across the entire freq range....You're talking some serious cash. I think at most lower/fixed price points, a sub/sat combo will give better performance for your dollar. Here is a thread that's sure to give you a headache, but it'll provide lots of data and opinions on this issue.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104270
Good Luck,
--Steve |
| c'mon...you know me better than that by now.... | steve6387
Jan 18, 2002 12:18 PM | | Why assume I haven't listened to powered towers and external subs? You ought know me better than that, Bob. I've made that comparison plenty of times.
And how about instead of "accurate" we use...a "flat" response? Better? My point is the same. |
| awwww fagheddaboudit | steve6387
Jan 18, 2002 5:03 PM | | I have neither the time, nor the inclination of listing every sub/sat combo and tower/sub combo I've demoed, and under what conditions, with what material, with what I was wearing at the time, and what time of day it was, and etc. That feeds into the same rediculous and endless challenges and back and forth garbage we've all seen before.
If you think I'm lying about what I have demod, I can't help that. Nor do I care.
You expect others to acknowledge when you have a point, don't you? In your first reply, I make this point as I do not think your case is completely without merit. But the way you challenge, minimize and attack any poster (regardless of their reputation) puzzles me? You completely disregard and minimize sound advice.
--Steve |
| awwww fagheddaboudit | steve6387
Jan 19, 2002 4:51 AM | | Your question becomes a convenient way to completely avoid my original point, and looks like an attempt to draw me into a debate over preference where no logical conclusions can be drawn. I find it insulting.
I have a 12 year old goddaughter who debates in similar fashion. She also likes to find any reason to argue when someone makes a point she does not like. "If I can't debate the point, I'll just muddy up the water with minutiae". She too comes from the "I know you are but what am I?" school of debate. She too must have the last word at all costs. Look at the pattern to all these threads. Someone disagrees. You MUST, reply, attack, and challenge their opinion no matter how they justify their argument. Anyone who wants to explore the following threads can see for themselves, though it will be time consuming.
As far as attacks go:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104270
1st page. Your 2nd response. You accuse Zooplancton of ruling out powered towers. And started to do so in nice caps w/an explanation point. He never ruled out anything. But, assuming he did becomes a great way to argue and add a certain "attitude" to the overall thread.
Same page. Your exchange with TV from SVS is exactly what I am talking about and why I'm even bothering here. You clearly used Dolby's recommendations to try to beat up TV with the fact that they recommend full-range mains at all points in addition to external sub(s). What was the point? He is well respected an has helped a number of us out in the past. He brings credibility to all these boards and is a credit to the industry. Sure, he should be able to defend his arguments. But I submit that he already did this a number of times and you simply refuse to acknowledge it....So you antagonize him, every time this comes up, rather than acknowledge his point of view does not coincide with yours.
Same thread. Second page. Half way down. You outright imply TV is misleading people with his statement. That is attacking someone bob.
http://www.hometheaterspot.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=001161&p=
Page 1; 4th response. You seem to proceed to contradict all the participants in the discussion and simply ignore the point that is being made. Same post, Brett states it is HIS belief that SOMETIMES powered towers are a design compromise, and he backs up his point. You call his opinion BS. Very few regular participants on these boards take that debate approach.
Look at your 6th response. You can't let it go and need to poke TV alittle more. He gives his professional opinion, based on exp and facts. You, then force the debate in the subjective realm, where your arguments have a better chance of holding their own. You are the world's foremost authority on your opinion. But telling someone the must "prove" that opinion wrong does nothing but further a pointless debate.
Same thread; your 7th response: Here's the quote:
"I am just trying to keep peoples minds open...without instantly dismissing or bashing other peoples speaker choices. TV (part owner of SVS, which is one of the sponsors of this website) is free to bash my speaker choice as much as he wants to...but I think it shows what a class act he truly is." He did nothing of the sort...But is it me. Or is that an attack?
After that, the thread degrades pretty quickly. IMHO, Tom (et all) should've bailed out of it much sooner.
I will not respond again in this thread. I simply wanted to back up my statements after you pi%#ed me off, by ignoring and minimizing a good point intended to help the original poster, to (apparently) pull me into an argument that (history dictates) would ultimately focus on personal preferences.
I apologize to the original poster, the moderator, and anyone who may think this post inflammatory. That was not my intention. I merely see a pattern here which I think should be pointed out so peopl |
| awwww fagheddaboudit | steve6387
Jan 19, 2002 5:28 AM | | I got cut off. What I meant to finish with was:
...so people can factor input accordingly. I like to think those that frequent these boards realize this is not my style, but I was not going to "let this one go."
--Steve |
| re: opinions needed on powered subs in inside of floorstanding.. | Doug C.
Jan 18, 2002 5:20 AM | | I'm not a fan of powered towers. I had Infinity Overature 3's with 300 watt internal amps. After 5 years of tweaking I ended up with them crossed over at 80hz and a pair of SVS Ultra's.
The main problem in many listening rooms is that placing the mains for producing the best soundstage and imaging, is not the best location for reproducing smooth, natural, extended bass.
I believe if you go with a speaker capable of 50-60hz and a good sub properly placed you will have more speaker placement options (since the mains and sub are not married to one another) and ultimately better sound, especially on music.
I have Paradigm Studio 100's now. They are crossed over at 80hz and I cannot localize the low frequency (It all sounds like it's coming from the mains). Although my mains are capable of 45hz, when I run them full range with the sub, they do not sound as good as when crossed at 80hz with the sub.
Doug C. |
| re: opinions needed on powered subs in inside of floorstanding.. | Doug C
Jan 18, 2002 2:52 PM | | I agree Bob. The point I was trying to make was don't assume that the overall performance of powered towers alone will be equal to a good quality main with properly placed good quality sub.
I cross my 100's over at 80hz because my sub does a better job below this. I ended up with the full range 100's because I wanted a speaker with strong midbass, that could play loud with no listener fatigue and the 100's deliver in this area.
Sometimes I think people get to hung-up on the specs and how low a main speaker can go.
Doug C. |
| Pros' and cons. | tedman
Jan 18, 2002 6:17 AM | | Pros'
Seemless integration of sub to the rest of the drivers, no holes in frequency reponse.
One less box in the room.
Cons
Placement problems. Trade off between imaging and good bass response.
What may be good placement for imaging may hurt bass response or visa versa. |
| I give you that.. | tedman
Jan 18, 2002 11:49 AM | | But then we go back to the original point. Why then buy powered towers if you're going to augment them with a sub? :) Have a good weekend.
:) |
| The real advantages of powered towers | RealJD
Jan 18, 2002 1:14 PM | | No question, in most rooms the best low bass will be in a position different than the placement for best imaging. However, for the most seamless blend to a sub, it makes it a lot easier if the mains have flat response at least an octave below the crossover. For an 80Hz crossover that means flat to below 40. This usually requires a pretty substantial standmounted speaker or a tower of some sort. Adding power to the bass section of a tower gives you the advantage of adjustability. So many "near" full range speakers I've heard have been bears when it comes to getting the bass to sound right. Having volume/phase and upper cutoff control could really help in that regard.
Having substantial response down below 40HZ would also make it possible to do without subs, at least until funds allowed adding them. Having the power for the built in woofs should also greatly reduce the amount of power required to drive the speakers. |
| I prefer Sub'd Towers... | Brett A. DiMichele
Jan 18, 2002 10:55 AM | | I will say that a GOOD pair of Sat's (Mini Monitors or whatever you
choose) and a GOOD sub will sound great. But for me there are more
reasons to choose towers with a sub built in. I have to say that to me
asthetics means almost as much as sound. And I prefer the way my towers
look and I love the way they sound.
I am not running powered towers mind you (AR9's) and for me I actualy
wanted non powered as this leaves me with much more flexability for
Bi-Amping these units. The AR9's have been tested down to 32Hz @ 100Db
and I can tell you they do as they are claimed. They put out clean low
bass. Granted a dedicated sub will go down to 18hz and I do plan to add
a powered dedicated sub for LFE purposes but for music I love the internal
10 inchers on my AR9's.
This topic has generated a wealth of great replies and I have to agree
that placement of sub'd Towers can be very critical. Make sure you have
the room to let these breath (especialy if they are rear ported) keep
them at least a foot off the back wall and play with the placement to
get the best results. Corners and side walls can boost certain frequencies
that can make the subs sound boomy, but with proper placement this is
a non issue.
Good luck with your purchase! |
| re: preout splitter, vibrating distortion towers | Master
Jan 18, 2002 3:00 PM | | I used the splitter incl. w/Monster Cable M351 sub cable ($40). to go from my sub out to a stereo amp. Works great. Sub in towers...problem. The bass from the sub in the tower causes the cabinet to vibrate. Do you really want that distortion causing event? Might as well put a pair of bookshelves inside a clothes dryer while listening!!! |
| re: preout splitter, vibrating distortion towers | Brett DiMichele
Jan 18, 2002 4:32 PM | | What kind of garbage towers speakers were you using that vibrated?
I have taken each driver out of my AR9's to see how the cabinents were
constructed and they are made from 3/4" MDF with internal bracing and
each Mid Driver has it's own sealed enclosure within the main cabinent.
I guess if you buy a $1000.00 + set of tower mains you won't get
vibration. |
| re: opinions needed on powered subs in inside of floorstanding.. | Vandy
Jan 18, 2002 3:08 PM | | I am NOT a powered tower kinda guy, I would much rather have a pair of mini moitors (with good extemsion below 80hz) and a solid sub. 1. its cheaper 2. it will likely image better and most important 3. you will have much less bass cancellation. Since low bass is omni-directional more subs won't "surround" you in sound any more than one competant one. I would say that powered towers treated like simply full range speakers and still crossing them over at 40-60hz can work, its just harder to deal with room acoustics. I find a external sub with a good bass management section and or a receiver/pre-pro with the same is a relatively easy thing to balance with smaller speakers, easier than many powered towers that often don't have as good a bass management ability. Bottom line they both can work well but usually the single sub is easier to set-up and you will have less cancellation.
Vandy |
| re: opinions needed on powered subs in inside of floorstanding.. | Woochifer
Jan 18, 2002 5:01 PM | | I've heard those speaker models, and much prefer the nonpowered VR-950. The bass on those Bostons is way overshot and sounds boomy. But, the Bostons are tame by comparison with how some other towers with built-in powered subs overdo the bass. In general, I don't like the design because it is very sensitive to room placement, and more often than not, the bass gets really exaggerated on these speakers. The only model that I heard that did not do this was the powered tower models from Energy. Those floorstanders had a deep bass without sounding boomy.
If you really crave the deep bass, give a subwoofer a try. Those are more flexible in terms of room placement, and generally give you better bass than a powered tower can anyway. And you don't need more than one preout for the sub, since most of the time you'll only use one. |
| I have both, powered towers(Snell XA75) and sub(Sunfire MKII) | bOb>
Jan 18, 2002 8:11 PM | | The Snells have several options, direct 5.1 subwoofer input from pre/pro or receiver or conventional speaker wire connection. The back panel offers controls over loudness in either connection. A switch to change the woofer/subwoofer rolloff slope will change the way the bass sounds and works as a bass shape control. The rolloff rate and shape of the low-frequency corner of a subwoofer affect its sound. For example, a subwoofer with a "soft" corner and a gradual rolloff rate below its range of operating frequencies will generally give a tight and rhythmically "fast" character. A system with a low-frequency corner that is squarer and rises slightly before falling off quickly will provide a more robust low-frequency sound. Additionally, the faster rolloff will give a better compromise in terms of apparent bass output versus woofer power capability. The Snell XA Towers offer both options via a rear panel switch on the Snell XA75. Also, the XA75 has a placement switch to change from normal free standing to boundary placement. Based on your room layout, you might find that one speaker performs bedst in the boundary setting, and the other in the normal setting.Treble level control contours the "brightness" of the XA Tower. A rear-firing tweeter adds spaciousness and ambiance to the soundstage and can be controlled. Sorry, but I feel that my Towers can over come most problems that powered towers may have when used with or with out sub. |
| |
