|   Need some help with a bright setup | Jack in Wilmington
Dec 6, 2002 7:26 PM | | My co-worker just purchased a total HT system. He has Paradigm Monitor 9's up front with the matching center and surrounds. He loves the setup for HT, but finds the music side to be a little to bright and would like to warm it up a bit. He is using a Yamaha RX-V1300 receiver to drive the speakers. I told him that I would ask around and see what I could find out. If you guys have any suggestions, I'll pass them on. Thanks |
| Tell him to try ..... | TinHere
Dec 6, 2002 8:14 PM | | The tone controls. Maybe simple will work. |
| re: Need some help with a bright setup | markw
Dec 6, 2002 9:22 PM | | That's kinda the nature of that combo. Like the other guy said, try ther tone controls. If it should ever arise again, you might suggest that one shop for a musical system first. The HT side will always fall in line once that is met. |
| re: Need some help with a bright setup | RGA
Dec 6, 2002 10:23 PM | | Unfortunately, this is the trend I've been seeing over the last several years. I listened to the Monitor line the other day and was appalled by what I heard. Yes they sounded quite fine with room shaking Home theatre material...but moving to music for around 20 minutes I could not find a single one of my discs that was not horrible through the Monitor 5s...where the hell did the midband go? It was too bright in the highs too boomy in the lows...I may as well be listening to those idiotic Bose satellites. Speaker placement adjustments didn't help and all in a well set-up and treated room. Shifting to the 9s helped but still bright.
Sure you can adjust tone controls but that adjusts every frequency in the treble range, not just the few you want. Certainly try it, but tthere is something about the nature of the driver/crossover/cabinet that makes that etched sound. I grant it sounds good with home theatre(though I was not paying close attention to the music but rather the thudding dinosaurs and roaraing screams).
You could try a tube pre amp, but I have not tried it myself so I can't be sure if it would help. New Speakers? |
| Other than buying a completely new system..... | cone
Dec 7, 2002 3:25 PM | | which is going to be a hassle and more cash...I would opt for a tube device such as the z-man Analog Signal Enhancer(ASE)...these are around $100...and can add a nice "rounded" sound when dealing with brighter systems...check out audiogon.com...musical fidelity also makes a similiar device...albeit more pricey...however...mating Yamaha receivers...which tend to be bright...and Paradigm Monitors which are bright as well...is asking alot out of a tube device...kind of a band-aid approach...but worth the minimal cost before doing a total system upgrade.... |
| re: Need some help with a bright setup | johnnyboy
Dec 7, 2002 12:34 AM | | Hi Jack,
If your friend can afford it, trade up to the Paradigm Studio line. I started with Monitor 7's and traded up to the Studio 60's. These speakers were night and day. I also thought the Monitor's were a tad bright on music with my Denon 3300. On a side note, I've seen on the message boards where people talk about Yamaha receivers being a tad bright for music. It's very hard to audition speakers in audio stores, since their room is set up a lot different than ours at home. Sometimes they just don't sound as good when we bring them home.
John |
| re: Need some help with a bright setup | Jack in Wilmington
Dec 7, 2002 9:19 AM | | Hi John,
I suggested maybe a switch in receivers might be the ticket, since everything is still under warrenty. I mentioned Denon, but the dealer doesn't carry it. But since you said that your 3300 with the 7's was a tad bright, that probably is not the way to go.
Thanks, Jack |
| re: Need some help with a bright setup | RGA
Dec 7, 2002 3:41 PM | | The amps are not bright anyway...people say that about Yamaha and it used to be true...has not been for a number of years. Speakers using metal tweeters if not properly implemented ring or suffer other problems which sound metallic...the Sudios have the same problem, to a lesser degree but it's still there.
If everything is under warranty...get rid of the speakers and look elsewhere. No law says you havve to buy Paradigm...lots of speakers I like better that are often cheaper...which means your friend may find the same. Check into Mission/B&W/JM Labs/Castle etc. Lots out there. |
| A ltttle side question... | Noonin
Dec 8, 2002 7:25 AM | | I am considering getting a B&W DM602s3 setup for my RX-V3000. Do you think they are less bright than Paradigm for music? I like a "detailed" sound, but not raspy and fatiguing. Are they dynamic enough for HT? |
| A ltttle side question... | RGA
Dec 8, 2002 4:11 PM | | I have not heard the amp...but some people even find the B&Ws a bit bright. I find that they strike the right balance for metal tweeters because the design largely eliminates ringing and other unwanted distortion. Basically they resolve without the smearing of lesser designs. I find the B&Ws less fatiguing than most any other speaker using metal tweeters...JM Labs also does a good job here. There is not so fine a line between detailed and etched. You have to discover the difference and not get fooled by the etched sound. Basically, in the big box chains and elsewhere a company wants the speaker to stand out amongst the pack.
The best way to that is have a bright speaker, preferably louder as well. So the consumer who spends 20 minutes shopping will purchase the Paradigm over the more laid back sound of say a comparable Mission. Over long listening though the brightness is highly distracting and you end up listening for shorter durations.
Reviewers too can get trapped in this as well if they don't listen that long...and if they are reviewing in Home theatre mode then what they have to say is not that much help musically. For instance I have Terminator 2 and towards the end T2 gets frozen...Arnold shoots the frozen statue and it explodes at ear pearcingly high pitch...like glass breaking. The Monitors may produce that at higher frequency(or etched ringing) which will make all your friends and YOU go "Wow that was awesome." Where as the Mission will have more contriol and a little less piercing. Frankly I still think it has the wow factor but when you listen to classical music the Monitors will grate your nerves and the Missions won't.
But my guess is when you go speaker shopping the store has T2 running on the DVD player over the likes of Vivaldi.
So you get home and live with it for a while and chances are if you have the bright system you'll end up using it mostly for movies. Personnally I'd like the Missions so I can listen for hours without getting a headache.
As for dynamics...the B&Ws are more of a North American Geared speaker than a British sounding one and have more dynamics IMO than the Paradigm Monitor series certainly...and considering the 600 series is meant to compete with the monitors they actually compete very well with the Studio series. One of the reasons Paradigm does so poorly in Europe is because they have to increase their price for that market...where they are the same price as the CDM line. They can't compete at that level and basically have no real representation. Yet the B&W 600 Series has to increase their price when they come over here...and yet have huge popularity and very well represented.
There are plenty of others to be considered at this price as well...but the 602S3 is a great place to start. Check out some new offerrings listed in the last issue of What Hi Fi. Wharfedale makes a cheaper speaker that uses similar drivers and design as the B&Ws, there is Quad, Epos, Linn etc. Some of these others are a little newer and may have begun to surpass the 602S3. So they are certainly worth a look(and a listen). |
| Well put RGA... | cone
Dec 8, 2002 9:05 PM | | I lot of speakers are geared with a treble boost to "entice and excite" eventual buyers...most people do not audition speakers for an extended period of time...most are "compulsive" buys set up buy sales men who audition Free Willy with a boom-box sub...fun at first...but 2 weeks later most are shaking their fists and adding cotton to their bleeding ears...the addition of metallic tweeters...especially at the entry level...is both puzzling and dissapointing...most of these are going to be paired with a cheap AV receiver and a cheap cd/dvd player...which has "bright" sound written all over it...the inclusion of a more forgiving yet smoother soft dome tweeter would be the answer...the majority of hi-end speakers and studio monitors use silk-fabric domes...they avoid listener fatigue...and are more detailed...especially the hi end designs...than given credit for... |
| Tame it with an equalizer | skeptic
Dec 7, 2002 9:30 AM | | The correct solution for this problem is an equalizer. It is safe and effective and doesn't cost that much. It will solve a lot of other frequency response related problems too. If that's against your religion, tough luck. You can switch and swap till you're broke before you find what you want. Or you can ask the cable guys. They will tell you which ones will make your system more or less bright. Very unreliable and unpredictable not to mention expensive. Or you can just throw an army blanket over the tweeter...or diconnect it altogether...or put your fist through it...or put cotton in your ears...or turn the speakers around and point them at the wall....or..... |
| Use the Yamaha in processor direct mode....simple solution. | dvjorge
Dec 7, 2002 6:04 PM | | |
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