|   What makes one speaker more "unforgiving" than another? | Noonin
Dec 8, 2002 8:33 AM | | I ran across this post and had similar questions...
I have read that certain speakers don't like poorly recorded material or "lesser" quality electronics (Well, who does?) However, what makes certain brands more sensitive than others? I would think it would be the old "garbage in-garbage out" idea that if you don't give any speakers a good signal, from the electronics or CD, that they won't sound as good as with higher quality gear and a well-recorded CD? Are there speakers capable of somehow masking a bad signal and is there a trade off somewhere? |
| A lot of things... | RUSSIA
Dec 8, 2002 10:14 AM | | ...Off the top of my head:
b 1)
Good cabinet construction with very minimal resonances. This of course opens up the mids and highs if the mid and lower bass do not resonate in the cabinet.
b 2)
Good crossover would ensure that the signal does not degrade through the crossover and the drivers are blended well together with minimal peaks which distract from the rest of the music.
b 3)
Ummm...oh ya! An even top end, mid, etc. If the top end is even, then all the little nuances in the music are revealed. Dips in frequency response in the mid range and the treble are forgiving to poor compenents and poorly recorded music. Because of the dips, the details in the music is lost (whatever the detail may be).
i "However, what makes certain brands more sensitive than others?"
Since when does a brand have anything to do with a well-made speaker?
--Michael |
| As RUSSIA said, a lot of things... | Jimmy C
Dec 8, 2002 3:21 PM | | ... I have a few, also.
Yes, the balace of the frequency range can have a lot to do with it. Ever hear a (lower) Thiel speaker? Very good, but shelved-back bass. They are very articulate and detailed but the bass can be a little thin. Forget about poorly mastered recordings. Some people simply like the hyper-detailed presentation.
The mids are also an area where "forgivingness" can come into play. This is one reason some prefer vinyl. In general, LPs have a warmer, easier-on-the-ears sound. I have to admit it isn't usually painful to "air out" the turntable, but the CDP can be brutal at high volumes. Many compact discs have a boosted treble and bass - more friendly to car stereos and radio stations (and sales). Then again, you need a decent phono pre to get all there is out of a record - there is musical info taken out.
Some components do a better job of covering up nasties than others. I have always maintained if my primary music was R&R, I would have gone for the B&Ws. Laid-back mids, easy on the ears. With well recorded material I find them a little veiled, but very good anyway. Vandersteen is another speaker that can pacify bright CDs by way of smooth mids and big bass. Electronics sound differently, also.
IMHO, the chain starts with the quality of software. This, of course, is with the stipulation that associated gear and room acoustics are at least of decent quality. After that speakers, room acoustics, and source play a major role. Then you can play with preamps, amps and wires to tailor the sound.
Just my opinion, I am sure there will be more... |
| Generally speaking.... | cone
Dec 8, 2002 8:48 PM | | the one trait "forgiving" speakers often have is the highs are slightly rolled off...such as British Spendor,Castle,etc...and as one poster already mentioned...Vandersteen...most of the designs incorporate a soft dome tweeter...the Vandersteen being the exception...they tend to have a warmer,darker,"colored" character...and if you are a detail freak they are not the last word...however...they dont sound bright and thin...which seems to be the other alternative...and they mate well with both analog and digital sources...as well as budget-mid solid state amps...I personally find the majority of todays current combination of cd,solid state,metal dome tweeters bright...so these are refreshing to my ears...similiar to hi-end studio monitors...forgiving designs avoid listener fatigue...which can be a concern if you listen to music for hours on end... |
| re: What makes one speaker more "unforgiving" than another? | CHRIS8
Dec 9, 2002 5:20 AM | | "However, what makes certain brands more sensitive than others?"
By sensitive to bad source material, then: Specifically, this can be caused to very limited extent by amplitude respnose of the speaker. Recessed highs can 'help' make a speaker sound forgiving. However, this is a very limited effect unless you have severe rolloff.
More importantly, is how the speaker deals with resonances. The majority of speakers operate their transducers out of their pistonic bandwidth, thus the diaphragm begins to flex at various node points. Attempts at lossy diaphgraghm materials, surounds, etc. are used to attempt to minmimizet hese effects must this method usually is not very effective, and has other sideeffects in most circumstances. The most effective method is to simply use drivers that ooperate withint their pistonic band(not usually feasible for various reasons, cost being just one) Also, you have to deal with cavity resonances(standing waves) in the box and internal reflections that terminate back to the cone. As well as the edge reflection on cone speakers, where the signal reflects across teh radius of the diahgrahm and osicallets, the most effective dampng of this is usually a lossy surround. The cabinet, itself, also has a role and can be a determning factor. In these cases(driver diaphragm and box), energy is stored and released later at specific frequencies causing interference with the intended signal. The effect can be very roughly described as homologous to reverb of a signal, as in it will cause detail loss thst is somewhat similar, technically, but only on very narrow multiple bands instead of a uniform effect of the entire bandwidth. The net subjective effect/sound will depend on the frequencies at which these resonances occur, as well as how wide and severe the effected areas are.
Dont misunderstand about transducers, their are certain types that may be operted not witin a pistonic range and operate very well without resonances of any significance, but these are specifically designed to damp most of the otherwise resultatnt resonces and operate almost totally in non pistonic range. The majority of their diaphragm may tyupically be designed to damp energy, rather than radiate it. These are usually called bending wave/mode drives or some similar name. But these are not common, and for the most part do not apply to this discussion.
Also in question, is the listening room. A room with reflected signals of the direct source of greater than 6milliseconds will help distinghish the source signal. Lowere reflection times will tend to 'smear' the signal causing masking of detail. You can optimize by either damping the walls with an acoustical diffuser/absorber or by ensuirng the speakers are not near walls or otehr reflective boundaries(depending on your speaker type, it may be best suited for one method or the other, as latent reflections(>6ms)can be beneficial).
In caes of speakers being 'unforgiving' of great degree, it is typically a case of very few/non severe resonances. Thus, it is much easier to hear recording flaws. Of course, allowing early reflections(placing speakers to close to walls or no damping mterial on walls) can eaily cause loss of detail as well.
In most cases, it seems speakers are ridden with resonances that mask noticably, their output. Some typical(not in every case) transducer types that usually have very few resonances: Planer, ribbon, electrostatic, stiff-cone dynamics(kevlar, aluminum, etc.). However, it should be noted that this usually does not pertain to dome tweeters, as they almost always have breakup even with stiff materials. This is, btw, one debated excuse for many metal dome tweeters being 'irrating' or 'zingy', due to the excessive energy storage usually found in their upper bandwidth.
So do you want an 'unforgiving' speaker? Ignoring the usual cost involved, many peole would likey not enjoy these IMO. As, if you enjoy alot of p |
| re: What makes one speaker more "unforgiving" PART 2 | CHRIS8
Dec 9, 2002 5:25 AM | | So do you want an 'unforgiving' speaker? Ignoring the usual cost involved, many peole would likey not enjoy these IMO. As, if you enjoy alot of popular type musics then most of your collection would be rather annoying, rather then enjoyable. Even when that is not the case, their aer some peole who prefer a sound they describe as 'smooth, romantic, etc.' which is not typically associated with 'unforgiging' speakers.
-Chris |
| re: What makes one speaker more "unforgiving" than another? | Noonin
Dec 9, 2002 9:13 AM | | Is it too much of a blanket statement to say that, in general, speakers with metal dome tweeters are "less forgiving"? I understand it is not just one thing, that cabinet construction and crossover will factor in as well. |
| re: What makes one speaker more "unforgiving" than another? | CHRIS8
Dec 9, 2002 11:47 AM | | "Is it too much of a blanket statement to say that, in general, speakers with metal dome tweeters are "less forgiving"? "
See my reply to your original thread.
As for metal tweeters in specific, yes this is 'generally' true. A result of less typical resonances in their lower band allowing a clearer signal than moste equivelent soft dome tweeters. However, most metal dome tweeters also have a very significant ridge of delayed energy in their upperband(usually approx. found 13-17khz) that can cause additional fatigue if you have normal hearing. Of course, people with very deficient high frequency hearing would not be affected. Some(very few) metal dome tweeters are able to push their first signficant breakup mode past 20khz. In any event, metal dome tweeters still usually hve more resonances even in their lowerband, as compared to planar, ribbon, or other no quite so common alternatives.
-Chris |
| Every run a Violin through a metal dome tweeter.... | cone
Dec 10, 2002 12:07 AM | | sounds like a chain saw...and cymbals...fuhgettaboutit! Ill take a quality fabric dome any day of the week... |
| Why, sir.... | WmAx
Dec 10, 2002 12:59 AM | | now THAT is a blanket statement. :) True in *most* cases though, sadly. I highly prefer well designed planar or ribbon tweeters, but then again, recording quality must be very high in order to not 'annoy' the listener. Most soft dome tweeters, with their inherent broad spectrums of mild(rather well damped) resonances, do help relax the sound of many high-frequency dominant instruments/sound sources.
BTW, this is Chris... i got very tired of the old s/n.
-Chris |
| Ever hear a REAL violin or cymbal up close? | Woochifer
Dec 10, 2002 11:56 AM | | If anything, a metal dome tweeter reproduces all of the detail, warts and all. Believe me, a chain saw sounds nothing like a violin played thru a metal dome tweeter. Even in the hands of a virtuoso, a violin is perfectly capable of making irritating and headsplitting sounds. I've heard plenty of so-called audiophile systems with solo violin pieces, and while the effect is pleasing to the ear, it often sounds like a muted and obscured version of the real thing (like a violin with a bridge mute installed to dampen the crescendos).
And with a cymbal? The so-called "bright" sound that some audiophiles I know complain about is more like capturing the full impact and detail of a cymbal. In live performance, a splash cymbal is an ear-piercing sound. If an audio system reproduces this sound as smooth and pleasant, it's not doing it correctly. |
| Ever hear a REAL violin or cymbal up close? | cone
Dec 11, 2002 9:17 PM | | Even the best metallic tweets sound "overly excited" and "emphasized" IMHO...they claim higher definition...but never capture the "woody" character of a violin that a soft dome can...to be fair...the violin is an extremely difficult instrument to reproduce...I am not a detail freak...so the non-fatiguing nature of fabric domes appeals to me...others might find them veiled and dark in comparison to metallic...digital sound doesnt favor metallics either.. |
| re: What makes one speaker more "unforgiving" than ano | Woochifer
Dec 10, 2002 12:05 PM | | Given that every speaker introduces some coloration to the original signal, the unforgiving label sometimes refers to speakers that don't obscure the details. With these speakers poorly recorded recordings will be played back with all of their faults exposed. Or in other cases, recordings with coloration intentionally mixed in to sound good on radio or on cheaper systems will also sound irritating with more honest equipment.
The flip side of this description that I've seen is that some speakers are unforgiving towards electronics. This is usually with more demanding and power hungry speakers like electrostats, ribbons, planars, and 4 ohm mini monitors. Underpowered amps can really strain under the load of some of these types of speakers. |
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