|   Reciever or Seperates | Ralph
Jul 13, 2001 10:13 PM | | How do recievers compare to seperates in perfomance. I've read alot of reviews over the last couple of years where a reviewer would claim that a certian receiver will give separates,"more than a run for their money". This statement was usually made in regards to recievers costing upwords of a 1000 dollars. Are top notch revievers realy beginning to close the preformance gap between them and separates. How close do thousand dollar and up receivers sound to separates? |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | Robot Czar
Jul 14, 2001 8:56 AM | | My impression, based on experience rather than much data, is that there is no reason that a receiver cannot perform as well as separates. Historically, separates have tended to higher quality (and more expense). I used to worry that tuner sections in receivers were generally bad. They are, but they also seem pretty bad in most separates.
I think the main advantages of separates are that 1) You can mix and matched to achieve the combination of features you want, and 2) there may be some benefits to get the power amp away from the rest of electronics.
Receivers are not without benefits: 1) all-in-one takes up less space and is generally easier to use (you don't have to learn different controls) and 2) it is much cheaper to have only one box and power supply which tend to be among the most expesive parts of electronics. |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | abraham
Jul 14, 2001 9:00 AM | | Well for $1000 you'd be hard pressed to get into quality seperate processors and amplifiers for Home Theater. I do think however that recievers charge a lot for the features they add, and if your spending $1500 plus you should get a good quality processor and amplifier. The difference will be that the seperates have less features, better quality, and better power supplies, and most likely better sound. And the recieiver will win on convenience, and features. Hope some of this helps.
Regards,
Abraham |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | RGA
Jul 14, 2001 10:06 PM | | Where have you read those reviews? Sure a 2k receiver will give 1k Adcom Seperates a run for their money but that's arguable.
Seperates offer much more in flexibility, build quality, the componants use much higher grade parts and can sound phenomenal - Receivers do the exact opposite. The flagship Denon and Yamaha are exceptions but at the money they're asking they should be competant(and that's all the are) they certainly wouldn't make the grade in serious 2 channel listening with any difficult to drive speakers.
It's nice to have everything in one box but the vast majority if not all share wiring and can't seperate the internal componantry nearly as well...which cause various nasties in the sound. Most then have to add some kind of heat dissapation device such as a fan(something else to make noise) or a massive heat sink - which most don't bother with and put a cheapo one in...after all it just needs to last a couple years before it packs up. |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | PJ
Jul 15, 2001 8:01 AM | | For HT, I would take a reciever, every time. I have heard almost all big buck HT seperates out there, none of which I thought were a big step up (in HT) over my Denon AVC-A1D. At insane volume levels ~>108dB cont. from the listening postion (I listen loud, but not this loud), the seperates were cleaner, but for 6x the price, they bloody well better be. The seperates were some ridiculously priced Meridian and I think, Proceed (not sure though, definately something from Madrigal Labs, got a mental blank). IMO they were about 10% better for 600% of the price.
The only advantage to seperates in HT (IMO) is upgradability. A good power amp will always be a good power amp. The pre/pro gets outdated, and some can be updated, but I will never go past 5.1, so I went with an all-in-one HT amp.
For music, I would go straight for 2 channel seperates. |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | Ralph
Jul 15, 2001 11:49 AM | | I agee with your statement regarding recievers and seperates for ht but, what if your interest was mostly music with some ht? Would a reciever still be a better choice. I would be doing about 60-70 percent music with the equipment and about 30-40 Percent ht. |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | RGA
Jul 15, 2001 6:24 PM | | The gap is not as great in H/T largely, I suspect, because owners are not setting their systems up properly.
There are 1k pre/pros with Dolby Digital and DTS - You add the 5 Channel amp from Rotel at 2kCanadain and you have immediately put all receivers to shame - Yes and that includes Denon and Yamaha at 2k(Canadian) more. - For the life of me I can't recall the name of the processor but I believe it is in this monthe Inner Ear or Audio Ideas magazine.
For two channel it will be very nice. In HT the difference won't be as noticeable but the seperates won't be any worse that is for sure(and it's cheaper to boot). |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | PJ
Jul 15, 2001 7:28 PM | | Even better, add 5 nOrh LE amps...I would bet my last $$$ these would kill the Rotel.
IMO, where you run into differences is with the power amps. The pre/pro section in the top of the line AV receivers (clarification, I have never heard the 5700/5800, but the AVC-A1D is the non-receiver version, ie no tuner, of the 5700) is almost as good as the best seperates I have ever heard. Its the power amp section that lets them down. |
| Why? | 46minaudio
Jul 16, 2001 7:19 PM | | PJ why would the LE amps kill the Rotel?What do you mean by kill? |
| Why? | PJ
Jul 16, 2001 8:50 PM | | Just remember I am speculating on the LE amps, I have never heard them. I never said they are better, I said I think they would be.
Rotel is a decent company, I have just never found their products to be overly great. Good value for money, but never the last word in quality.
Obviously I will be biased towards nOrh, but the LE amp costs nOrh $200 to make. They make nothing on the first round of LE amps. Essentially you are paying $1000 for 5 LE amps, which actually cost $1000 to make. The $2k rotel probably cost rotel $500 to make.
Yes implementation is more important than components, but I think both are competent in the design phase.
Of course, I am only speculating. But put it this way...if it was my money...LE amps. |
| Why? | 46minaudio
Jul 17, 2001 6:02 AM | | .Cost per watt is the same on the amps.The Rotel is a 5 x 200 watts @ 2000$ and thats before a discount. LE Amps you would need 10 to get 1000 Watts @ 2000$.Rotel should be able to buy parts for less.I am not bashing the nOrh product it's a good buy. I just dont see 5 100 watt monos killing a 1000 watt Rotel.Biased yes! to say that before even hearing the amp it makes it hard to take your reviews serious. |
| Why? | PJ
Jul 18, 2001 12:13 AM | | But as you know...there is more to amps than just power ratings... |
| Why? | RGA
Jul 17, 2001 11:00 AM | | Some notes on Rotel, however, that you should be aware of. They Actually build a lot of their own componants - NO MIDDLE MAN - and have complete control over their production line. What some companies pay 200 for Rotel may make the equivelant for half. |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | RGA
Jul 16, 2001 9:09 PM | | I have a problem with any company that will not submit their products for a review....nothing against nOhr but IMHO they are more than a little suspect. Companies like ASL and Passion send their amps for review and are also a word of mouth company. Again I'm not saying nOhr is a bad product but I want to see them back it up...and not by an internet review based site...One simply can't check their references sort of speak.
Of corse not that review magazines are all that great either...but often they are less biased than owners.
The tuner section destroys receivers. The 5700 left me ice cold after hearing it with B&W CD1SEs and the Arcam Alpha 9 - replace the amp with the Alpha 10 Integrated and it was brilliant - add the 10p power amp and I was amazed that a sub 8kCanadian system could sound that good.
The problem I have with the Denon has always been that if you're gonna pay all that money for it and then replace the power amp section with say a $1500.00 power amp you're now spending upwards of 7kCanadian on an amp - yes it is very good - but the same quality of sound can be had from seperates from Copland, Classe, Bryston, SimAudio, Arcam, Musical fidelity. You may have to mix and match for rear effects but still. And of course a lot depends on the speakers the Denon is asked to drive. |
| Agree.. | PJ
Jul 18, 2001 12:09 AM | | I would not pay full retail for a receiver. I paid $AU4000 for mine, which retailed for $7000 before it was discontinued. At this price point I would probably go seperates, simply for flexibility.
SVS has also never had a offline review, and yet I would have no hesitation buying them. I actually trust online reviewers more than a magazine, as advertising etc is not a factor.
There is not 1 unsatisfied nOrh owner out there, that I am aware of. I am sure there is somewhere, but there must be very few..
You should try to get a listen to some nOrh stuff, would like to hear your opinion on it...I am sure there is many owners in Canada, maybe one near you.
Everyone is biased towards what they own, its human nature. |
| Agree.. | RGA
Jul 18, 2001 8:19 AM | | I would like to hear nOhr because frankly they look neat. Speaker design is not rocket science so they likely will be at least good or better than good.
One-day... |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | ruffscruff
Jul 15, 2001 4:34 PM | | Hi,
A few weeks back there was someone new to the "hobby" here and they asked the differences between preamps, power amps, integrated amps and receivers. I don't think the size of the listening area has much to do with what you get - all my individual components are in a relatively small room - 12x14. I won't put all I wrote here, but I happen to stumble onto a description that a lot of people seemed to like. I said that a receiver is like going to a burger place and getting a "happy meal." It probably has some compromises in it and every feature may not be exactly the way you'd like them. Individual components are like ordering each thing you like the very best from the menu. Please don't misunderstand - I'm not knocking receivers. There are some excellent ones around - it's just a matter of taste and how deep we want to get in to the hobby. The key is to enjoy whatever you listen to!! |
| re: Reciever or Seperates | principal
Jul 16, 2001 2:41 PM | | I before E except after C
RECEIVER |
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