|   Bought a New(Used) Amp - Sugden... | RGA
Aug 23, 2002 10:20 AM | | Well I was initially looking for a bedroom amplifier for my B&W DM302s. I was going to buy a used power amp(I looked at the Anthem Amp 1 $1,000.00CDN and the Bryston 2B LP for around $500,00CDN) and then use my Antique Sound Labs MG Head DT as a preamp. I was also considering the 8watt Wave 8 Monoblocks from ASL for $400.00CDN. What I really wanted was the ASL AQ1003DT but it's just too much for a student - well it's all too much but you gottal live and blow money cause you might die tomorrow.
Well today while getting a new Shure cart for my NAD 533(and it's a HUGE difference over the Goldring Elektra) I happened to look at the used section. Typical JVC, Denon, Sony receivers that get turned over as soon as this weeks new Surround decoder comes out).
Anyway, I saw a little Sugden A48B Integrated amplifier. Now I had been listening to the Paradigm Studio 100s and Musical Fidelity A300(the big integrated)with matching CD player with my NAD to make sure the Shure cart was going to satisfy me. (The Nuvista - CDM9NT and Audio Note turntable made the Paradigm/MF/Nad look(and sound) sick by comparison but what can you do - it also cost a hell of a lot more.
I showed some interest in the Sugden and so they connected it up...the little light bulb power switch was not working but hey it is used. To my startling surprise I was amazed by what I heard. I had heard some of Sugdens other amps over the years and always thought they were good but to be this good against a far more pricey integrated surprised me. When I bought my Arcam Delta 290 integrated it was between that and a Sugden(different one with less power). I liked the Sugden better but the Arcam had all the features...like a Remote, processor jack etc.
So here's my chance to make ammends. The Sugden's phono section to me was a biggy since right now I'm using the little rat phono preamp. So since i have two turntables in two rooms whatever amp I bought I'd have to factor in the phono preamp.
The Sugden amp is notably softer(less edgy) in the highs than the MF or my current Arcam Delta 290, but I closed my eyes and thought tubes(The Sugden runs about as hot as tube gear with the big side fins getting toasty. I can't say it sounds better than the MF but I can't say it sounded any worse(again shocking since the MF is considered a class leader(or right there), and yet I loved the richness in Sarah Mclachlan's Surfacing album(CD)...a breathy full quality(with lots of air) to the sound - tremendous bass authority(again surprising from the amps power rating and the Paradigm 100s being not all that easy).
The MF presented a bigger soundstage and was perhaps faster(though it has a lot more power than Sugden) I think 2 and 1/2 times the watts - better suited with a tougher speaker like the 100s. Despite that though her voice thinned out a great deal with the MF and it seemed less engaging to me - don't get me wrong I'd take the MF it is an excpetional amp and it it has breathtaking looks. I would give the edge to the MF for sheer ability to play difficult loads and for complex music the soundstage is better. Still though for what I paid I can't be more happy. (I'll tell you later).
The LPs I brought sounded better with the Sugden everytime so it may just be a weak phono section in the MF. The other thing here too is that the NAD is not a top flight unit...so it could be that the Sugden accomodates lower end decks better where as the MF revealed more of the NAD's flaws - which of course makes it sound worse if you hear the flaws). I'm not suggesting that the Sugden's phono section is better overall but in this set-up the Sugden produced a far more pleasing sound than the MF. Perhaps the Sugden is more forgiving and less revealing(Geez like a tube amp)!
The Sugden isn't exactly a warm amp since it boogies well with Madonna's Holiday and Patricia Barber's Cafe Blue Album(Track 2) had plenty of speed and depth. Barber's multi octave voice impressed to no e |
| Continued | RGA
Aug 23, 2002 10:21 AM | | Barber's multi octave voice impressed to no end. Sade's Kiss of Life rumbled the walls and her voice full and rich. I love Female vocals and this amp seems to have been made for me. The strings on Acoustic Alchemy Against the grain were detailed and well decayed. The Yellowjackets had the saxes flaring and the flutterring effects on the track I was listening to well...flutterred. The Outfield's Play Deep LP and songs Your Love and Say it Isn't So were rich, fast and solid.
The only drawback was the Paradigm 100s which oddly didn't seem as bright to me as they usually do but this time a little too subdued(The room was not the best though - I've heard the speakers sound better). Either amp the sound was a little muddy in the midband at times. If anything the Sugden seemed louder and clearer. I know you can't go by the volume control but at the 12 o'clock position the Sugden was really driving clean and clear with deep bass. The MF it seemed like I wanted to put it up just a bt more. On CD though this was not noticeable.
I've read reviews and of course the Sugden is not perfect(The Sugden doesn't like Electrostats and is suited to 8ohm loads 4ohm capable...but with My 95db senstive 8ohm horn Wharfedale speakers the amps 60-70 Watts is more than enough. Even my dream Reference 3a MM De Capos will be safe:-) Unfortunately, I'll be a teacher when I graduate so chances are those speakers will remain a dream. Any female Doctors looking for a husband let me know.
Lastly
Ohh $425.00CDN(They tell me it retailed for $1895.00(with phono stage) - not bad since the store also fixed my Dual 506 and put wire world connectors on for free - and the nice exchange of the Goldring for the Shure Cartridge. And they gave me a 45 adapter which NAD didn't supply - they even cleaned some of my records on the Nitty gritty machine. Thank you soundhounds crew. |
| So I assume.. | igor
Aug 23, 2002 11:34 AM | | that you bought it right? Congrats, sounds like a nice piece. I'm putting together a "budget" system right now, and I occassionally look at used gear, like on audiogon, but their prices still seem high to me -- I guess it's all relative.
Here are a couple of systems I'm looking at: any feedback would be helpful. Here are a few of my parameters. Looking to spend no more than $1200 - $1400 (the wife mentioned a $800 budget, and I said fine, as long as that's just for the speakers). My living room where this is going is 18 x 13 feet. One wall is sort of open to the dining room. Room arrangment is going to be tricky. On the two 18' walls, one has a fireplace, the other has the couch. The 13' wall where the speakers can go, has a large window. I will need to get curtains. Wood floors, with a large rug, and large stuffed furniture, but at this point minimal furniture. Music: Rock, acoustic, classical, jazz, modern country (wife) pretty eclectic styles overall.
System 1:
Nad C350 integrated amp, C541i cd player, PSB Image 5t speakers. Cables? Undecided so far. Maybe Kimber, maybe Sonic Horizons.com, maybe the signal company. Will remain modest, but it won't be Home Depot wire either.
System 2:
Cambridge A500 (65 watts, more likely 75+, about the same as the NAD) Cambridge Audio D500SE cd player, Athena Technologies F2 speakers (maybe the F1 if the F2 are too powerful for the room size).
Additions: May substitute a Sony SACD player for the regular cd player. Maybe even one of their SACD/DVD players if I add some video to this system some day.
Maybe the NAD C370 amp, but I can always add an external power amp later. Doubtful anyways, that this system will be able to be cranked very often, as my 10 month old son's room is next to the living room.
Also, I would prefer not to have a sub. And because of the kids, I am definitely going with floorstanding speakers.
Given the budget, size of room, how do these systems sound to you (on paper of course)? Any suggestions you would make?
When do you graduate? For some reason, I thought you were older. Good luck with school. I work at a University, makes me feel almost like going back to school again. See ya. |
| well | RGA
Aug 26, 2002 9:25 PM | | I worked for ten years in accounting and largely hated it so I'm going back to school to become a teacher.
Regarding your systems. I was looking for a good power amp or integrated for my second system but the Sugden came along..it's cheaper(Of course it's used) and better than the NAD 370. I'm not saying go buy a Sugden but there are tons of good used amps. My Arcam Delta 290 Integrated is better than the amps you're looking at and you could probably get it for around $400.00US(likely less). Good quality amps will last you decades so buying used is pretty safe.
If you absolutely must buy new then buy the cheapest of those amps you're looking at that has external amp connections for upgrading.
The reason I say buy a used amp is because the technology is slow to improve and it will leave you more money where it really counts - your speakers.
I have not heard Athena so I'm no help there and PSB Is fine. They're not my favorite sounding but you may differ.
As for Sony it depends on the SACD player.
If you end up with sensitive speakers then a tube amp can be a great alternative to the 370.
I'd go to the high end stores and look at their used sections. You may get lucky and find a YBA Integre DT(double transformer) cheap. The 350 and 370 are good value minded amps for the money so is the Cambridge...but on the used market you can do a lot better. |
| thanks | igor
Aug 27, 2002 6:09 AM | | Good luck with school -- teaching is a noble profession. My dad was a teacher for 33+ years, and mostly loved it, and the students thought he was great too. He taught art, and has had numerous students go on in different facets of the art world; one has become very successful at Disney, one is designing car interiors at Chrysler, some architects, one students we saw last month is now a film producer in Spain, the list goes on. Having summers off would be cool too :) If I was a teacher, I would also love to coach, probably tennis, and maybe a football assistant. What do you want to teach?
As for the systems, I am still undecided, which is a good thing. I wouldn't totally be opposed to buying used; I have one local dealer that gets some used stuff in, but otherwise there isn't much to choose from here. Unfortunately cost does drive this purchase, hence the NAD and Cambridge gear. I have been corresponding with someone at Spearit Sound (NorthHampton Audio) in MA about NAD vs Cambridge gear (they sell both) and they somewhat perfer the sound of the Cambridge gear, but the ergonomics is better on the NAD -- which I didn't think was so great but maybe its improved. And your point is well taken about going with the cheaper amp, and using the preouts for a better power amp later on down the road. I have been thinking about that. But the speakers will have to warrant that purchase as well. A vicious cycle eh?
How about the Axioms, have you had a listen there? Their floorstanders, the M40 or M50 are also pretty well reviewed, and are available at less $ if you get a blemish model. Also the Paradigm Monitor 5, a largish bookshelf, any thoughts on those? If I recall, you weren't a fan of the older Paradigm tweeters. Any chance you've heard the V3 tweeter? And what about the PSB don't you like?
Finally, places like audiogon, what used integrated amps should I be looking for? Names, and model numbers -- but is it realistic I can find a good used amp for the price of a new NAD or Cambriddge? Thanks in advance, good luck with school. |
| thanks | RGA
Aug 27, 2002 12:41 PM | | I plan on teaching Elementary school but I won't graduate for 3 and 1/2 years so things could change.
I have not heard the Axioms but I get a mixed bag of opinions on them. They are sensitive so tube lovers like them and tubes tend to soften bright highs if they exist. Whatever you do listen before you buy.
I listened to the Studio 100 when I bought my Sugden. It's a good speaker but IMO there is better for the same dollar or less available. If you listen to 85% rock they are a reasonably good choice. I don't so they are not my cup of tea. Also, the only good Paradigms I've liked are the 40 and 100 - the others in the Studio line are ok too but there is more competition in the price points.
To be fair PSB is typically sold in Sony stores so getting a read on them is tough. I was not enthused by the Stratus Gold...it's big and loud sounding but didn't seem all that accurate.(I heard this with top of the line Adcom gear).
Speakers are so hugely a matter of taste that it astonishes me that people would buy them unheard...people like metal tweeters I try and avoid them, others like the sound of Horns or electrostats or ribbons etc. They all have pro's and cons.
The one thing I do like about PSB is that generally there is nothing really negative about the sound of the speakers...no harsh highs etc. On the other hand, they also don't generally have anything that gets me too exited over them. Again though, most of the time I hear them with Sony garbage receivers so it's a compliment perhaps that PSB makes Sony not so irritating.
You can do well on the used front. For instance about 8 months ago I saw an Arcam Delta 290 Integrated and Delta 290 power amp set selling for $500.00US. The Delta 290(which I have) sold for $1,400.00CDN alone..the power amp was around $1,000.00CDN - so together around $1,700.00US. The Delta 290 is a 75Watt per channel amp(remote incl) and was a Stereophile Class B integrated in 1997. I actually like the sound better than the Arcam Alpha 10 which is also a Stereophile class B amp but has 100Watts per.
This is just one example. Amps have few moving parts and should last a long long time if you buy quality. I had no reservation over the Sugden at nearly 10 years old because it's hand built to outlast me.
I would look at used amps from Acuras, Sugden(A48 or Au21), Arcam(Delta 290 or alpha 9 or 10).
There are simply too many to list individually but generally certain amps from Adcom, Rotel, Bryston, Anthem, Sonic Frontiers, Copland, YBA, Classe, ATI seem to come up a fair amount. Heck even older NAD preamp power amp combos could be had for the list of a C350. |
| You're brave... | igor
Aug 28, 2002 6:17 AM | | teaching elementary school! Actually I think it would be fun, as long as you have patience. Do you have any kids? I have a 3 year old and 10 month old, and man they can wear you out. I supposed once they get to elementary school age, they are a little more controllable. Funny though, I can remember every elementary school teacher I had -- can't say the same about high school or even college. Maybe they do have the biggest impact after all. I say go for it. I know where we live (Ithaca NY) there is need for teachers, and the predictions are for even more as the baby boomers retire. In NYS, the salaries are pretty good, and the retirement program puts most corporations to shame. Something to think about. But buying the equipment you like will be a tad bit harder...but you already know that :)
As for the Axioms, I have found a dealer not too far from here that is one of the few in the US that is actually a dealer for Axiom, since most of it is internet driven, at least outside of Canada. I have only read positive reviews, and have talked with the folks at Soundstage.com (for what it's worth) who think the world of these speakers.
Funny that PSB where you are were matched to Sony stores. At least here in the US, they are distributed by the same company that handles NAD, so they are often paired together. There is one local dealer that does sell this combo together -- I just need to get down there and listen. Did you read the latest article in TAS about real systems, under $2500, they did it with NAD and PSB using Kimber cable. Almost the exact setup I am looking at.
The Athena's I mentioned also got a very good review in Stereophile (August). The review is on the web at ecoustics.com if you haven't read it. Very Very good review. It is also not a metal tweeter, it is man-made silk like fiber they use. Right now that is the front runner speaker for me, with the PSB at #2.
I know you can't imagine buying before hearing, No local Athena dealer) but if I buy from AudioAdvisor (free shipping) I have 30 days to send them back if I don't like them. Personally, my viewpoint is that while it is preferable to listen to a speaker first, if you can't hear it in your home, with your gear, at your leisure, listening to it anywhere else is almost useless. You might be able to get a baseline feeling, terrible tweeter, sloppy bass, crappy build, but much of this (except build) might change once the speaker is in your own room. So, especially since I don't have much to listen to near me anyway, I will listen to what I can, read as many reviews as possible, talk/email people who have similar gear, and then take the plunge. As long as you can send back the gear you aren't happy with.
Thanks for the list of gear to look for used. I will continue to look. Still I see so much I would like, but I can't justify the prices now, or any time in the near future. But sometimes you do find a "deal". I still like the idea of new equipment, as silly as that sounds.
I may still go the C350 route, and then save for a really good power amp, and then save more for a good preamp, so on and so forth. But I have to start somewhere, and NAD or Cambridge seem like good places to begin.
Do you have an Athena dealer anywhere near you? I'd be curious to hear what you think. They may too much of a rock speaker for you -- they do have 2 8" woofers, at least not much of a need for a sub, which I don't want. But I have to say I was surprised that Stereophile liked them so much. Have you noticed how certain mags, like TAS and Stereophile have been reviewing and liking much more "low-end" like equipment lately? Maybe there's hope for us small budget but expensive taste audiophiles yet. Talk to u later. |
| The Axioms may be good and Paul Lam seems to like them | RGA
Aug 28, 2002 7:10 PM | | It's interesting you mention you're from NY. I live in the city of Nanaimo, British Columbia.(On Vancouver Islan near Victoria).
Anyway, Several "talent scouts"(can't think of a better term) came up here from NY last year to attract graduating teachers. Apparently several States in the US hold our Canaidian teachers in High esteem.(or desperate or both). Salaries in the US vary wildly though. A friend of mine went to teach in Orange County, LA and was paid $19,000.00 for the year. Another state offerred another friend $40,000 and a $7,000.00 signing bonus(one of the States starting with a W).
Then there is teaching English overseas. Japan paid a friend $40,000US and also paid room and board for the year(and the flight). For a Canadian $40,000.00US is $60,000.00CDN - A starting Canadian teacher is around the $37,000CDN mark or $25,000US. Lot of big differences.
Axiom offers the advantage of using tube amps(or my Sugden) and Paul Lam seems to think highly of them. I bring him up because most of the time I find I have similar taste in gear.
You may even want to consider Creek if you can swing it. Some amplifiers are big brutes like NAD and Rotel. There's nothing wrong with either and I enjoy them. On the other hand Creek(and Sugden) are smooth and not overpowering(ie; less fatiguing). I like those amps a hell of a lot as well. It really is system dependent. Axiom uses metal drivers if I'm not mistaken and Creek might be a good fit. By all means if you can home trial that is actually the best way to go.
I don't blame you wanting new. The Sugden was my first used audio purchase that cost more than $20.00. But the Sugdens use top quality parts, and are put together to exacting standards...and are one of the only amp companies still being made that are all Hand made(at a high level). Plus it's a Class A DC powered amplifier.
In fact while I'm on Sugden why not consider one of their new amps? The A21a is fairly pricey but with sensitive speakers you won't need to add a pwer amp. Here's a site of reviews - the What Hi-fi review on the top right is interesting. http://www.audiosynergy.co.uk/rtf.htm
Sugden has little to no advertising...but they are one those non flashy amps found in high end stores. |
| Good morning... | igor
Aug 29, 2002 6:23 AM | | I think. Got up too early today (thanks to my 10 month old). Anyway...yes, teacher salaries do very widely around here. Is that true in Canada too? I can't believe your friend in Orange CA made only $19k for the year. That is unbelievably low, in any state, but especially there. People spend that much on their taxes on their luxury cars. I lived in NC for a while, also a state with low salaries, but they've been moving them upwards, starting at $29k. Here is upstate NY, we seem to value education more than many other places, and teachers make decent (that term is so relative) money, I think mid to high 30's to start with. Principals here make over $100k easily here, something to consider some day. A wild turnover in that job where we live though -- a definite high stress job. Benefits for teachers though is very very good, something to consider as well. Are you planning to teach in Canada, or are you thinking of going south? It's hard to quantify what the best states are to be a teacher, it probably varies quite a bit by region, and community. Where I live, in Ithaca, we have one major University (Cornell) where I work, and another very good college (Ithaca College) and a decent 2 year community college, so education is pretty much everywhere. This has to be one of the most over-educated work force. We have PhDs working in administrative jobs. I was lucky to get the job I have. But our taxes here are relatively high for upstate NY, one of the reasons being is that teachers and administrators are paid well.
As for audio, I do like Creek, but I can't swing it financially now. I do have one problem with Creek though, and you may totally disagree with me, but I do like tone controls, as long as there is a direct switch. I may not use them, but dammit I like to know I could use them if I want to. Plus my listening room is going to be fairly lively, so adjusting for treble may be a reality. I do like the the Creek 5350se though, a very nice unit. What do you think about the Perreaux equipment, sold at AudioAdvisor? Too expensive for me now, but something to think about on down the road.
As for used, stuff like Bryston with their 20 year warranty would be a fine used purchase. I've been looking at used Adcom on Ebay, and I've seen some of their amps, that the owners have mentioned problems like continuing blowing fuses, even after a tech has overhauled them. I've seen this on more than one occassion, and that alone would make me nervous buying a used Adcom. The trouble with used Bryston is that for me, it is still expensive. Or it is so old/used, even if it did sound good, often the equipment doesn't look good, and aesthetics is also important to me, as silly as that may be. I would love to have some beautiful looking equipment, like a Hovlan tube amp or those wild looking Halcro amps, but for $35k, I got better uses for the money. Not that NAD is anything special to look at, but at least new, it won't look like a garage sale special.
I'm worried too that my 2 kids will "play" with daddy's new toys, and cause damage. That happened before (although it was a good thing, because I got rid of this crappy, crappy B--- thing.) So a damaged NAD amp, would give me less of a heart attack, than a damaged Creek amp, so on and so forth.
I think if I went back to school, I would go into engineering, and design my own amps and speakers. Probably wouldn't be as much fun as it sounds, but I would like to try it once. Maybe some day I'll get a little tube amp project.
Unfortunately when putting a whole system together (including a decent rack), I can't spend a lot on any one component. It will be easier to do so when upgrade time comes, but for now, it's like I can allocate $400 for the amp, $400 for cd player, $600 for speakers, $200 rack, $150 cables, or any combination thereof. WIth a new house (circa 1955) I have a lot of home improvements to make that will cost more, and are more necessary than cool audio com |
| couple more components... | igor
Aug 29, 2002 12:46 PM | | Whaddya think about the Wharfedale Diamond 8.4 floorstanders? AA has a special on them, $449 for demos. I'm tempted. They are ineffficient though, so I would probably go with the C370 in this case. Thoughts?
Also, what do you think about the Sony cd player, the CA70ES, a 5 disc ES player. $229 at ReliableAudioVideo, $299 at Crutchfield. I have always had good luck with Sony. I kinda wanted something other than a Sony, but if it's good, might be the way to go. Also 5 year warranty. Thoughts on this? I need to buy something soon, wasting too much time thinking about it. Later. |
| couple more components... | RGA
Aug 29, 2002 5:59 PM | | Well I own Wharfedale and they've been good over the years. The new Diamond series is supposed to be very good and that is a very attractive price. Either NAD should drive them(again you can always add to the 350 later).
Not a fan of Sony cd players.
Have you considered an entry Arcam Amp...the A75(I like the White version - you'll have to click on the A65 to see the White version) is a good choice and also has the tone controls. They'll drive an 86db sensitive speaker fine.
You can also pick up the latest What-hi fi as they have just done a test with a bunch of Integrateds. Check it out. Maybe another good selection available.
Too many years away to think about where I'll teach. I've travelled all over and I'd like to stay in Canada preferrably. |
| Ooops...the site | RGA
Aug 29, 2002 6:00 PM | | http://www.arcam.co.uk/diva/hifi/a75.html |
| |
