|   Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | dchart
Aug 27, 2002 7:09 PM | | I am pretty new to home audio and would like some advice about how to add more power to my system. I have a Denon 1802 receiver with a Sony DVD/CD/MP3 player. For speakers I have a Mirage 150 sub and a pair of Energy Veritas 2.4 floor standers. The speakers sound great but I know that I can do better with more power. The receiver puts out 90wpc and the Energys are rated for 200wpc.
I purchased the receiver based upon price, features and quality and am pretty happy with it. One day, I will use it for home theater, but right now I have no TV in the room and use it strictly 2-channel music. Please don't post about what a bad decision I made on that purchase. I am not looking to replace the receiver.
I am to understand that I can add a 2-channel power amp to my receiver with good results. Now I just need to figure out where to start. I would like to get around 200wpc for around $800. I have no problem buying used stuff, either.
I would appreciate any assistance you could provide! |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | Mr Peabody
Aug 27, 2002 7:47 PM | | As receivers go, I found Denon one of the better sounding ones. My brother has the next model smaller than yours. I hooked an Adcom 125 wpc amp to his to see what the difference would be. We gained in the bass, but didn't notice a big difference in volume. You will probably have to get at least 200 wpc to gain in volume. The Adcom either 52 or 5400 is 200 wpc & can be had in your price range used or demo. I'm not sure really what else would be in that range. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | 9ball
Aug 27, 2002 8:43 PM | | Look for a used Parasound amp. You can get tons of power for around 800 bucks used. If you get lucky you might be able to find a Classe amp for about that price, but these are the two manufacturers I'd go for on the used market. As far as new stuff, Adcom makes a decent amp for the price but they aren't really in the same league as a Classe or Parasound. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | Ray from RI
Aug 27, 2002 8:52 PM | | Call me a party pooper, but if you are pretty new to home audio, you might not hear much difference with a power amp. The Denon is pretty decent (I used to have a 1801), and the Veritas 2.4 are efficient speakes at 90dB sensitivity. The Energy website recommends "up to 250w", but the 1801 IMHO has more than enough power to drive those speakers.
You may want to try a 2-channel amp at home, but make sure you can return them. Your $800 may be better spent elsewhere.
-Ray |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | RGA
Aug 27, 2002 9:54 PM | | Actually, as receivers go you may have chosen one of the best ones. Receivers are what you get to start you off, so I always reccommend that people should buy the cheapest receivers that allows for external amp upgrades. The 1802 is relatively inexpensive and Denon has a solid build.
I'd rather buy an 1802 and add to it then spend on the 5800 and still be stuck with good but not great sound.
Adcom is not a bad selection but going that route is not the best IMO. You simply don't need 200 Watts. You get a 3db increase when you double the watts. A 180 watt amp is 3db louder than your 90Watt amp. 3decibals louder is negligeable(many would not even notice it). To get a PERCEIVED(to the ear) doubling of volume you need ten times the power or in your case a 900Watt amplifer(you also need speakers that have a rating to 900Watts).
What you should be after is an amplifier that will sound clearer at louder levels, one that will create a low noise floor and create bags of air around instruments.
My first suggestion is to find a Bryston Dealer and borrow the 3BST or 3BSST for a weekend and hook it up. It is rated at 120Watts per channel. First of all that is bags more than you'll ever need, and second if you don't notice a difference with the Bryston then no other Solid State power amp you try will sound different to you. Used you can get the 3BST for <$800US. They also carry 20 year transferrable warranties so even a 5 year old one is fine. http://www.bryston.ca/revprod.html |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | piece-it pete
Aug 28, 2002 9:42 AM | | Hello RGA!
After a few months on this site I've learned tons! of stuff, but I've never heard about "bags of air" around instruments. Could you clue me in?
Thanks,
Pete |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | RGA
Aug 28, 2002 6:36 PM | | This is one of those things I've heard a lot about but never really heard it until I first brought a Bryston 3BST home for a weekend. Within 1 minute I knew My flagship Pioneer Elite Receiver was a piece of crap by comparison...And I had chosen the Pionner because it sounded better in 2 channel mode over the Marantz and Denon at the time.
When you listen to live music...say a Jazz set-up with a Piano, sax, Acoustic guitar and listen you hear sound from where the instruments are placed. When you listen to a boxed speaker there is a certain muddiness to the sound.
I find it hard to explain in words as I never understood until I heard what people were trying to say. The only thing I can say is that most systems sound like systems. The speaker is producing the sound. With a good soundstage and "air" around instruments the sound does not seem to come from the speakers but rather a stage where musicians are.
Take Sarah McLachlan's Fumbling towards Ecstacy Album. Most of the time on mid fi gear or stuff that is called Hi End(but is just Hi-end pricing) You listen and it is basically OK. Sarah's voice comes from the center the drums are there the electronic instruments are there but everything is homoginized. You get the soundstage and a few other goodies. A system that creates Air has her not just in the center for a proper soundstage but also sounds like Sarah is standing ten feet in front of you singing...when I took the bryston home it felt like AIR(Literally) passing by my ears. The other instruments react in an Identical way but are coming from wherever there respective positions are...even 5 feet or more right of the right speaker etc(same for the left).
In simplist terms if you sat in a dark room and listened...you would not be able to tell that the sound was coming from speakers...you'd think Sarah's band was there.
I could not afford the Bryston, I bought Arcam...it's close but not nearly as good as the 3BST. And the Bryston while it does this very well - is not to all tastes...some find the sound very analytical picking up every little flaw on the disc.
Describing AIR to you makes me feel like my definition is very "Airy Fairy" or audiophile emotional technobabble.
A high end dealer that sells Bryston may describe air better. Better yet hook up a floor stander that has a fair degree of bass...perhaps the B&W CDM 9NT or offerrings from JM Labs...listen to the Bryston and then a receiver...come back and give a definition of what air is. It's tough. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | jonty
Aug 29, 2002 1:18 PM | | "bags of" = Brit-speak for "lots of", not actually bags as in sacks/suitcases, etc. Big inflatable bags of air around the instruments would sound horrible. |
| Like describing sight to the blind? | piece-it pete
Aug 30, 2002 6:34 AM | | RCA,
Thanks for trying! I believe I now have a vague idea & if I ever hear it I'm sure I'll understand. I hope someday to audition some of this incredible equipment. 'Till then, midfi for me. (I'd be sad, but it could be lowfi!!)
Pete |
| BTW jonty, My great grandad said I was full of hot... | piece-it pete
Aug 30, 2002 6:58 AM | | air! Repeatedly! LOL!!
It didn't even occur to me that RCA might be English (are you?) or I probably would have caught that, my Mother being a British citizen & me having spent many wonderful months as a kid in England.
My Grandmother still lives on the Headlands of Hartlepool (where they hung the monkey!! Also, didn't the creator of Andy Capp hail from there?) but I have family scattered all about the Island. (Now that I've thought of it, I'm going to post the monkey story over in friday jokes!)
Whereabouts are you guys from? I'd love to hear more local stories!
Cheers,
Pete
P.S. This weekend in the U.S. is a national 3 day vacation! Time for bangers & crisps!! (& Englands' greatest legacy - Bitter!!) |
| Sorry I'm Canadian | RGA
Aug 30, 2002 8:10 PM | | but I've lived in Wales for a year. US Canadians take a lot of our background from Great Britain(a colony after all). |
| Whoops and you're R "G" A - sorry :_) | piece-it pete
Sep 4, 2002 9:05 AM | | But Canada has some good points too - Molson, Clean cities (do your police crack heads or something?) & the BEST camping I have ever seen. What a "colony" LOL!!
Pete |
| No need to crack heads | RGA
Sep 4, 2002 9:22 PM | | Up here the Police carry Guns...citizens do not. :-) |
| Touche'___(darned uppity Canadians__:_)_____nt | piece-it pete
Sep 5, 2002 10:40 AM | | |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | wanderingbob
Aug 28, 2002 7:12 AM | | What is your objective in increasing the power output to your speakers? If increasing the SPL of your system is your goal, you will only see a moderate increase from a 200 Watt power amplifier. I say "moderate", rather than the "slight" 3 Db increase that would be expected from doubling the power available to drive the speakers, because a quality two-channel amplifier will produce lower distortion and more dynamic power than your receiver does (by the way, I think your receiver is a good one), allowing you to turn up the volume a little higher without objectionable clipping.
You might want to audition a B&K Reference 2220. The Reference 2220, which offers 220 WPC into an 8 Ohm load, includes high quality discrete components (resistors, capacitors, etc.) instead of op-amps and a heavy-duty power supply transformer. The build quality is outstanding, the unit is made in the United States, and a five year warranty is standard. If you search diligently, you might be able to find a new one for $800 - I paid $1,100 nine months ago online (http://www.allhometheater.net/).
Musically, the B&K amps are "neutral" - they are not overly bright, nor do they have a "warm" sound.
Bob Gardner
wanderingbob@yahoo.com |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | snickelfritz
Aug 28, 2002 8:26 AM | | Adding a separate high quality poweramp is mostly about obtaining a more relaxed and open sound at high SPL's, but will likely only make a volume difference(a very noticable difference!)in deep bass transients, unless you decide to run the new poweramp into compression or clipping, at which point it will probably sound much like the Denon receiver at a higher volume level.
I'd recommend at least 200wpc, unless you have very efficient speakers.(>90db/w/m)
With high powered amplifiers, you also have to be aware that it's possible to "bottom-out" your woofers with high level bass transients.(usually makes a very loud pop or crack sound)
BTW, I have had the Adcom 5800 for about 7 years and it's a very powerful and musical amplifier.
It's also very nicely made and definitely high end.
This amplifier is very difficult to run into clipping, except with speakers of lower than average sensitivity(<87db/w/m), and even then it would still be quite adequate.
I have seen the clipping indicator flicker one time with my B&W speakers(90db/w/m), and that was at a truly prodigious sound level.
This amp also bottomed out a pair of Paradigm Studio Monitors below its clipping point!(these speakers are rated to handle well in excess of 300watts)
Rotel and Acurus are some other good brands to audition, and I concur with the Parasound recommendation. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | sam9
Aug 28, 2002 8:43 AM | | Do not expect dramatic changes even with double the rated power. Unless you really "crank it up", most of the time any amplifier is operating at only a small fraction of its rated power (like 10 watts). The benefits of more power is mostly noted in the peaks. In general (meaning there are exceptions) classical symphonic music has the greatest extreemes between min and max levels (no surprise as the number of musicians playing at any moment can change from 1 flue to the whole shebang!) Also exterme bass content like the the lead in tracks to Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon will suck a lot of watts.
Since you already have a sub, that takes a lot of the load off the reciever. In effect, your 90WPC may already be performing much like 150WPC would absent a sub.
So if your musical tastes include a lot of the above you will notice more of a benefit than someone who goes primarily for small acoustic combos.
If you are set on more amplification then the suggestions re Parasound and audio control are sound. If you want to get a bigger bang for your $800 I suggest you at least read up on room effects, speaker placement and acoustic treatments. (See www.tubetrap.com, www.echobusters.com and similar sites.) For $880 you can get some spectacular results. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | A
Aug 28, 2002 9:14 AM | | Does your system not play loud enough before it distorts? If it does play loud and clean, then there is absolutely no reason to waste your money on a power amp.
What an amplifier does is amplify (increase) the signal that is fed into it. That is all it is supposed to do (though some people buy amplifiers that alter the sound and enjoy these added distortions). If your amplifier in your receiver is properly amplifying the signal, and if it amplifies it enough for your speakers in your room with your desired volume, then another amplifier will not change the sound at all (unless, of course, it added more distortion). A power amp will not work magic, despite what some people may claim.
Now, if your system does audibly distort when you turn up the volume, then buying a more powerful amplifier may be a good idea.
If you could tell us what, precisely, you want to be different about the way your system sounds, and what problem you are now having, we may be able to give you appropriate advice. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | Paul L
Aug 28, 2002 9:32 AM | | Unfortunately the poweramp is only the beginning. Your speakers are far too good for the rest of the system and you need to upgrade all the electronics in order to bring the best out of your speakers. For around $800, you can look into Parasound poweramps.
Paul Lam
P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc. |
| check out the anthem mca 20 (NT) | zambonikane
Aug 28, 2002 7:09 PM | | |
| Whoa there, back up a second.... | spacedeckman
Sep 3, 2002 7:46 PM | | I'm quite familiar with the 2.4s. They aren't a really difficult load, but they need some "bump" to get going, and stay happy. Your concern should be more of quality than quantity, especially on a budget. Your whole "200 watt" thing is going to get you into more trouble than help. You will end up getting yourself into something doofy like an Adcom. A Rotel is a bit better, but if you can possibly get a bit of flexibility in your budget, (you may or may not need it), find a McCormack DNA .5 and smile one step closer to audio Nirvana. Another good choice, but a really hard find would be a Marsh 200. That is about $1300-1400 new. A used one would be right in your ballpark.
Granted, both these choices are not 200 watts, but they both sound good, and will work well with the 2.4s. Then start working on a real preamp. The one in the Denon is suspect at best. Save up your money and find an Audioprism Mantissa. On the used market they fetch $1000-1200 for a standard one. Tubes, but preamp tubes last a long time, so maintenance isn't really an issue. The combination will take your breath away. It is the biggest secret going in preamps. You want current production? Mark Levinson is asking $5k for a modestly hopped up one from what you can find used. Scary thing is that it just may be worth it. |
| re: Need some assistance/advice about a power amp | Bob Marker
Sep 4, 2002 12:29 PM | | As others have pointed out, a more powerful amp may yield slightly higher volume without distortion but, depending on the size of your room and and the levels at which you listen, the increase in power may not be needed. As an example, for several years I owned an Adcom 555 that produced 200 watts per channel. More recently, I've used lower powered (70 - 100 watts/channel) Classe, Luxman, and Pioneer gear in my system and have never missed the added power offered by the Adcom. However, I have a modest size room (200 cubic feet) and normally keep peak playback levels below 90-95 db. |
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