|   Best table for $500? Sumiko or MusicHall? | cone
Nov 21, 2002 11:30 PM | | Putting together a classic Brit system...small monitors,intergrated amp,just need a turntable...any suggestions? These can be found at audioadvisor.com...thanks..and good listening... |
| I'd go with the Music Hall | DMK
Nov 22, 2002 6:09 AM | | Are you comparing the MMF-5 with the Sumiko that has the oval shape? Can't recall the model but it's $500. The MMF-5 comes with a cartridge for the same price. It's a Goldring, not the last word in detail and extension but still a good cartridge for the bucks. With the Sumiko, you'd be spending more than $500 for the whole shebang. |
| If you can swing it | draganM
Nov 22, 2002 9:35 AM | | DMKs right about the MMF-5, biggest bang for the buck in TTs. However, the Sumiko/Project he's refering to,which I beleive is the RM4?, comes with a better tonearm. If you can swing the extra $150. to $200. for a cartridge to install on the RM4, thats the route I would take. |
| What about catridges? | cone
Nov 22, 2002 8:06 PM | | Its been awhile since I,ve had a decent table...So I am a little bit out of the loop..what type of catridge does the rm4 require vs. the MusicHall? are these both moving magnet?and how often do you have to replace them? Is the installed catridge on the Hall any good? |
| What about catridges? | draganM
Nov 23, 2002 6:22 PM | | Ok, heres a quick heads-up, neither table "requires " a certain cart. Any cart can be mounted to either table. However, a better table will come with a better tonearm, and a better tonearm will be sturdier and have higher precision bearings. This allows you to install a very sensitive moving coil cart because they have to be precisely controled in order to NOT transmit any spurious vibration or movement from the arm to your pre-amp. In other words, don't mount a $3000. cart on a $300. table. The MMf-5 comes with a good cart.and a decent arm, but if you want to try moving coils, which start around 2 to 3 hundred dollars, go for the RPM4. BTW, there are some excellent moving magnets out there too, its just a matter of what you're looking for soundwise. I have found the MCs a little more detailed, but unless you have a MC pre-amp, you will have to stick with the high output MC models like the Goldring Eroica and Dynavector 10x4. Good carts come with a quality diamond that lasts for about 1500 hours as long as you keep it clean. |
| What about catridges? | DMK
Nov 25, 2002 10:18 AM | | "In other words, don't mount a $3000. cart on a $300. table."
Words to live by, generally. I have, however, mounted a $2500 cartridge on a $600 table with excellent results! I once tried a Benz Reference on an older Rega Planar 3 and I was astounded! Man, that RB300 - is there a finer arm at that price point? Of course, the Benz Ref really took off when mounted on a Basis/Graham combo.... |
| Several points... | Max-Greece
Nov 23, 2002 12:35 AM | | Yes the oval TT is the RPM four - I have one. The price and what you get varies with where you are.
In Europe you can pick up the RPM four with cartridge (K4 - a badged grado) and the project 9 arm AND the project phono box all for less than $500.
Just as a matter of interest arent the music halls and the projects made in the same factory or something. I seem to remember that the MMF-7 comes with the same arm as my Project (but with no instructions).
Of course if you dont want the standard cartridge (I have it but I am about to replace it, you could probably shoe horn a Denon 103 or 110 MC into the $500 limit if you shop around... |
| The RPM 4 "indy oval" is $400 online.... | cone
Nov 23, 2002 2:54 AM | | but my dealer has offered me the Hall 2.1 with cartridge for the same price...so I guess my dilemna hasnt changed...I am leaning towards the SUmiko RPM...I like the notion of choosing my own catridge...are these easy to set up and install? If i went with the HAll...the dealer would include proper fine tune set up...any thoughts...and is the tonearm on the Sumiko a substantial upgrade? |
| The RPM 4 "indy oval" is $400 online.... | draganM
Nov 23, 2002 6:06 PM | | Why would you pay $400 for the Music Hall 2.1?, this TT routinely sells for under 300. online.Did you mean the MMF-5 for $400.?That would be a great deal on a very good table that comes with a decent Goldring G1012 moving magnet cart. But, If you can get the RPM 4 for $400., go for it.The tonearm is substantially better, its a bigger diamater tube with larger ringcage bearings (same arm that comes on the MMF7 and PRoject Wood Classic), which means it would be better suited to handle a delicate moving coil cartridge than the MMF-5. If I had this table, I would mount a Goldring Eroica, Dynavector 10X4, Audio Technica OC9, or any number of excellent carts.However, If you've never installed a cartridge before, a table like the RPM4 with a 2 to 3 hundred dollar cart is not the place to learn. |
| Dragan.... | cone
Nov 24, 2002 10:09 AM | | the mmf-5 is $400 as well with installed cartridge...maybe that would be the "simpler" option...the last cartridge i installed was on a Luxman with a Signet...back in the day...also...do you know anything about older LUxman intergrates? like the L550 or 560...from what I've heard...these are supposed to have superb phono stages...I assume since Luxman made good tables as well...they are pure Class A designs too... |
| Here's another route | draganM
Nov 24, 2002 10:46 AM | | Yeah the MMF5 would be simpler and thats less than I paid for my old MMF5 2 years ago. You could easilly sell it for $300. online of you want to upgrade later like I did(went to a Linn).I was under the impression you had not installed a carts before, If however your just rusty, I say get the RPM4. Its not that hard, 4 color coded push-on connectors,2 screws, A Shure vertical tracking force gauge for $20.,and a nice proractor that pays down over the spindel like a record with imprinted alignment grid is about $30. The last thing would be tracking angle , set by loosening a couple of set-screws and moving the arm up or down, and azimuth -twisting the arm until cart is parallel to record surface.
Heres acoupls of links,These carts below are new and I have bought from this guy,he's great. Either of these 2 carts would be a good match for that table, I beleive the first one is commonly mated to these tables on the European market, the second comes with the MMF7 stock.Think about it, for $625.00 you could have the performnance of the MMF7 for $250. cheaper. I'm also pretty sure your local dealer would install the cart for a lot less than what it would cost you to buy the set-up tools/gauges, they shouldn't charge more than $30.00.
http://www.ortofon.com/html/body_magnetic_technical_data.html
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgcart&1041784285&class&3&4&
BTW, can't comment on the Luxman, do a search here because there used to be a guy called Dougman who was knowledgable about the vintage stuff. |
| Ooopps | draganM
Nov 24, 2002 10:49 AM | | Heres that first link again
http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?anlgcart&1041343552&class&3&4& |
| Dragan....what about the Rega P2.... | cone
Nov 28, 2002 4:46 AM | | everyone I spoke to swears by the P2...my local hi-end shop,another shop that only sells tables,as well as posts on Audiogon.com...it comes with the rb300 arm...which is about as good as it gets...and is found on some very pricey tables...for around $250 used...this is equivalent to buying the arm...and getting the table for free...and for simplicity of design...the Rega wins out...what phono stage did you go with? |
| well.............. | draganM
Nov 29, 2002 9:56 AM | | Actually, the P2 comes with an RB250 tonearm, which is the only really good part on the whole table.Consider this
"the plinth design is of a low mass particulate core sandwiched by highly rigid phenolic laminates"(sounds like particle board to me, just like your kitchen countertop). "The P2 uses a derivative of the new ultra low vibration state of the art adhesive mounted motor assembly borrowed from the P3"(the motor is glued on with double stick tape ). "The Platter is CNC machined HDF which is then metalised, giving a platter with good mass and accuracy"(compare to the RPm 4s acrylic platter, how many high end tables use medium density fiberboard for platters?). I'm not saying that this a bad table but consider this, the Rega P3 sells for around $450. bucks in Great Britian and sells for $750 here in the U.S., is that a good deal?
If you can get a used P2, they usually sell for around $250., that would be a good buy.Unfortunately, they don't come up often as people commonly rip the tonearm off and mount it on a VPI or some other better table.If your considering paying more or equal money for a new P2 versus the $400. RPM4, I think it would be a mistake IMO. BTW, I bought a used Musical Fidelity XLPS for $180.00 to go with my LP12. |
| Dragan...You convinced me ... | cone
Nov 29, 2002 10:10 AM | | a buddy of mine called it "overpriced lymey cardboard"...but he has never been a huge Rega fan...I see your point...if your going to do it...do it right...but most British equipment is overpriced...you have to fight the UK pound...RGA also mentioned the NAD 533...which is basically the rega 2 in disguise...if I find a sweet closeout deal...I might bite...who knows...I am in no big hurry...the $400 rpm4 is a good deal as well...Ill probably wait till after the holidays and see if a returned "open box" item surfaces...that is how I buy most of my equipment...thanks for the info...your system is really coming together nicely...good choices... |
| Also... | cone
Nov 29, 2002 8:01 PM | | the RPM 4 is MDF as well...no getting around it at my price point...unless I want to go used...which is always a crap shoot...made that much higher with TTs...having a table that works properly is headache enough for me...still need a phono stage...some difficult decisions ahead...but sonic nirvana is just around the corner |
| Actually they're quite different | draganM
Nov 30, 2002 10:33 AM | | The RPM4 does not use MDF(medium density fiberboard) it used HDF(high density fiberboard)and both of these are different from the " low mass pariculate core" used on the Rega P2(if your curious, go to your local hardware and ask to see a piece of particle board vs. MDF).This is because the 2 tables use totaly different concepts to isloate the drive motor.
The Rega has the motor glued directly to the plinth, therefore it uses particle board, which is basically sawdust glued together, to try and prevent motor noise and vibrations from traveling through the plinth and into the tonearm.The vast majority of speakers, including some "high end" models use the same method to try and cancel out cabinet vibrations. Of course particle board looks like shit, so in order to conceal it, Rega and various speaker comapnies use glued-on laminate to hide it.The problem with this on a TT is that harmonics can travel along the laminate (around the particle board) and still get to the tonearm, his is called a "skin effect".
The RPM4 is totally different, according to the manufacturer
"This table uses a suspended motor design for extremely quiet, vibration-free performance. Swiss-built tonearm bearings with tempered steel gimbals add ultra-smooth operation to the belt driven suspended AC synchronous motor. A high-density fiberboard platter and felt mat both contribute to record isolation."
By suspending the motor any plinth vibrations are almost eliminated, and therefore MDF can be used. This material is not the best for isolation, BUT it dosen't look bad and since it's smooth only requires a thick coat of textured black paint to look good.I was under the asumption that the RPM4 came with and acrylic platter, but that would be an easy upgrade down the road. Sonically, I'm not sure that an acrylic platter would be a huge improvement over the stock platter on the RPM4. However, It would allow you to eliminate the felt mat used by all entry level tables, and as you will soon find out having the felt stick to your records from static buildup after play is a major pain.
As far as buying used tables, there always risk involved, but if your smart and pick a seller on Audiogon.com with high feedback, you can avoid problems. I took a risk and sent a guy $1300. for a used Linn. I did however ask a lot of questions, was he the original owner? did he have the original packing(crucial for preventing shipping damage), why was he selling the table? etc. and everything turned out good for me. |
| To tell you the truth.... | cone
Dec 1, 2002 1:26 AM | | Im really not crazy about either of them...board is board in my book...and I would much prefer a "suspension design" to these newer chipboard "isolated tables"...but at my price point...there really is nowhere else to go...and you have to start somewhere....I might consider a used Thorens if it was immaculate...at least parts are still available for most of their models..and unlike Fons,Systemdek,Arsiton,etc...they are still in business... |
| SOTA | hifitommy
Dec 1, 2002 12:27 PM | | is still in biz and the sapphire is one that should be on your short list or an AR ES1. email me at hifitommy@aol.com.
.....regards.....tr |
| Dragan....what about the Rega P2.... | Paul L
Dec 1, 2002 10:53 PM | | The RPM 4 is a good table. You can also consider the P3 as well. I am not sure the P2 is using cardboard platter. I think it use a thinner glass platter than the P3. Anyway, I never sold P2 myself. All my sales are P3 which I think justify the price difference.
Paul Lam
P.L.C.Lam Consulting Inc. |
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