|   Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | EH
Apr 8, 2001 12:04 AM | | I am looking to replace both my IC and speaker cables. I currently use Kimber PBJ and 8TC and find this combination somewhat irritating. Especially noticiable with high hat, cymbals and female voive with slurred sss. The basic problem is some brightness. I tried MIT which performs with the opposite problem - too dull with a bloated bass.
I heard Cardas are very neutral sounding and recommended. Does someone have experience with Cardas? What will have the more significant effect IC or speaker? Does anyone have any other recommendations. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommendation | Eyespy
Apr 8, 2001 12:15 AM | | Use 24 gauge speaker wire, over a relatively long run. The longer the run, the "warmer sounding" the wire will be. |
| Until you destroy your amp | BM
Apr 8, 2001 8:05 PM | | Why don`t you tell him to use Recoton yea thats it ..... |
| Perhaps... | GCM
Apr 10, 2001 10:07 AM | | you could explain how 24 gauge speaker wire will destroy an amp. I'm not holding my breath. |
| How do you figure that? | observer
Apr 11, 2001 2:54 PM | | actually, i'd say that VD would be a more fitting moniker since you are spewing forth much verbal diarrrhia as opposed to a simple bowel movement, which at least has some substance to it. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommendation | Bruce Burke
Apr 9, 2001 5:55 AM | | As for the interconnects, find a cable with the highest amount of capacitance/foot you can and use at least 50 feet of the stuff. the Belden twisted pair(black/red) with the foil shield would be a good choice, it's about 78pf/foot.
Or you could just hang a 1000pF cap right across your existing interconnects.
That'll warm the sound right up too.
-Bruce |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommendation | Eyespy
Apr 9, 2001 10:01 AM | | Hehe...good points! |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommendation | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 11:53 AM | | >>>That'll warm the sound right up too. <<<
Warm enough to fry an egg :-) |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Steve H.
Apr 8, 2001 12:37 AM | | Those cables are fine, your source is most likely your problem. |
| Balderdash! | Eyespy
Apr 8, 2001 12:54 AM | | "your source is most likely your problem:
You reach this conclusion based on what? He did not reveal what his source components are, nor his speakers, nor his room set-up. And of all the possible causes, you state the source is the most likely cause for the perceived brightness? That's the LEAST likely source (next to the cables, of course). Speakers, room acoustics, and recording quality are magnitudes more likely to be responsible.
BTW, ever play Balderdash? It really is an excellent game. For some reason, I tend to excel in it, having never lost once. I don't do well in Monopoly for some reason, which I find way too boring. Never did understand what others like so much about Monopoly. But, really, if you don't have Balderdash, get it, I'm sure you will agree. |
| Balderdash! | Steve H.
Apr 8, 2001 7:26 AM | | Well... exxxcuuuuuzzzzzmeeee. :P I should of put it, look at other things besides your cable. Was late when I responded. |
| Balderdash! | Eyespy
Apr 8, 2001 10:06 AM | | It was late for me, too. I must get a bit punchy when I am sleep-deprived. Was trying for humor with friendly sarcasm. I'll try to get more sleep next time! |
| Balderdash! | Steve H.
Apr 8, 2001 10:15 AM | | Ya, I'm in the same boat, as far as the sleep goes. Up late last night , early rise, was kinda grumpy this morning. |
| Balderdash! | Steve H.
Apr 8, 2001 7:30 AM | | Oh, and by the way, your first response was real helpful. You could of just told him what you just stated in your response to me... I just love this place. |
| But... | Eyespy
Apr 8, 2001 10:02 AM | | ..about the game...have you ever played it? I'm serious, it's very good. |
| But... | Steve H.
Apr 8, 2001 11:40 AM | | I'm not one for board games. I like the games that get me outside. More of a sports and fitness guy. Nothing like a good day in the outdoors, then settling in and listening to music or watching a movie. Thanks anyway.
Steve |
| it is.... | gonefishin
Apr 9, 2001 8:12 AM | | .....a good game. and I bet you are good at the game ;)
Main Entry: bal·der·dash
Pronunciation: 'bol-d&r-"dash
Function: noun
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1674
see NONSENSE
hehe.....take care eye |
| is that the game where you guess whether or not... | sometimesjones
Apr 9, 2001 12:18 PM | | Is that the game where you guess whether or not a word is real or made up? If it is I agree, that is a great game. Apparently, that was a game before somebody had the smarts to put it in a box and charge money for it. I think it was called 'dictionary' and the way it was played was that someone had the dictionary and read a word from it aloud, or made one up while pretending to read it (maybe not just read it, maybe write it on a piece of paper) and the definition. The others would have to guess whether or not the word was real. In a variation of this game, one person would read an actual word from the dictionary with numerous possible definitions and the others would guess which defintion was correct. |
| Close, but not quite | Eyespy
Apr 9, 2001 10:19 PM | | All the words are real words, but very obscure. The players have to come up with proposed definitions for the word (it can be the true meaning, if you know it, or something you think the other players would believe), then people vote on the one each thinks is correct. The game is absolutely hilarious.
Somehow I bet there would be other excellent players here, I wouldn't put it past gonefishin, either :-) |
| Just last night......... | TinHere
Apr 9, 2001 10:52 PM | | a friend was over explaining a game her family played called Dictionary. Sounded like fun. Thanks for mentioning the name, I think I'll get it. |
| Actually, that's what I meant... | sometimesjones
Apr 10, 2001 1:02 AM | | Yeah, that is the game I meant, but I've obviously forgotten how to play! As I said before, I think it was a party game before it was an actual board game. I'll bet the people who used to play it are kicking themselves for not having the simple idea of putting it a box! And I agree - it is hilarious. |
| hehe....maybe someday eye(nt) | gonefishin
Apr 10, 2001 9:13 PM | | |
| don't be so sure of yourself.... | minoan
Apr 14, 2001 12:03 PM | | I use to own Kimber PBJ interconnects and also found them excessively harsh and bright. Thought it was the titanium domes on my speakers so I checked it out via headphones from my Melos tube headphone preamp & JoLida tube cd player, with PBJ interconnects. The Melos has a slightly dark sound to it while the JoLida is darker still. Listening via 'phones from the Melos I found the sound still too bright. Changing over to Cardas Golden Cross interconnects, a much better (and more expensive) product than the Kimber PBJ, completely eliminated the bright & harsh sound - yet provided more details in the music!
-Minoan |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | HTguy
Apr 8, 2001 10:15 AM | | Have you tried Tara Labs? IMHO they might be what you're looking for. I said in my opinion, so the cable police should let it slide. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 8, 2001 1:57 PM | | Well, you did state an opinion but you must have based it on something. You didn't pull it out of thin air, did you? Perhaps some cable specs to show that it rolls off certain frequencies enough to make it audible? DBT result perhaps? |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | HTguy
Apr 8, 2001 7:23 PM | | Do you base all of your opinions on tests? Do you do DBT on toilet paper? How 'bout paper plates? Get a life, go get laid or something. I base my opinion on my personal experiences, I clearly stated it was an opinion. If you mean DBT, yes, sometimes I listen with both eyes closed. I've told you before I've nothing to prove to you, you have nothing to prove to me. Go put that sexy evening wear on that you like to wear, and put them hot listening shoes on and hit the bricks. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Steve H.
Apr 8, 2001 8:28 PM | | Funny stuff huh? He actually wanted someone that cleaned his rca connectors to do DBT also. It could get time consuming and expensive making small changes to your system, and sharing what you found. Doing a DBT everytime you did something to your system. Lets see, to do it right, hearing test at least once a year to begin with, what do those cost? Unless you don't think hearing loss is important in this type of test. The little approved cable switch boxes so you can hear the differences within seconds... what do those cost? All connected to a computer with a program to analyze data, because if you hand write it, you may skew the results in the direction that you want the results to be. Draging your friends over everytime you change something. I probably left something out of proper DBT testing, I'm sure someone will let me know. Wonder if he does DBT on cars? I don't like to be sarcastic, but it is getting comical. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 11:56 AM | | >>>, but it is getting comical.<<<
Yep, all the hype and mythology sure does get comical, too often. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 11:59 AM | | Only when it matters and I make claims, I try to base them on facts.
>>>I base my opinion on my personal experiences, <<<<
One nees to know when they are unreliable and biased. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | HTguy
Apr 9, 2001 1:31 PM | | What's the matter? Don't you have any personal experiences? Just another book smart guy? In my job I deal with the people that live in the theoretical world, but I also see the real world. Some people are so caught up in the theoretical world they never understand why their plans don't work in the real world. Do you ever even listen to a real high end system, or is your experience limited to Audiovox? Do you have any opinions on any thing in life? Does a book tell you what car to buy? What house to buy? What kind of steak to eat? Do you have any opinion that you have formed with your own mind, your own experiences? Or are you one of the machines? You sound like you'd be a real blast at parties! |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 9:18 PM | | >>>but I also see the real world. <<<<
Biased, of course. And at time unreliable.
>>>? Does a book tell you what car to buy? <<<
Oh, you do all your own research? Take it to a slalom course, do you? Check the fuel economy? Maintenance history, repair record? Go for it.
>>>You sound like you'd be a real blast at parties! <<<<
You'd be surprised. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | HTguy
Apr 10, 2001 3:56 AM | | It must be hell dealing with humans, eh Hal? Damn biased people have opinions on everything. I noticed you didn't answer the question regarding actual listening experiences ( you like abbr. so let's call these ALE's). Got all the walmart wire you need in that one box Audiovox? Have you ever listen extensively to $20K system ( not including wire)? Does it sound the same to you as a Walmart special? |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Rockwell
Apr 10, 2001 10:38 AM | | "It must be hell dealing with humans, eh Hal? "
Only the hard-headed ones that can understand the difference between a preference and a claim, or opinion and a statement of fact. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | HTguy
Apr 10, 2001 1:50 PM | | Gotcha! Forgot to change your moniker again! C'mon Rockwell ya know what opinions are like, don't you? A-holes, everyone has one, you expressed yours above so don't try to play unfeeling, unopinionated robot. Hard-headed is just another opinion, one that could suit just about anyone here, including but not limited to you or I. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Rockwell
Apr 10, 2001 2:22 PM | | Change my moniker? ...why would I do that?
That is not the point I was trying to make, but you you are making my point...oh, here let me explain again
Opinion,Preference : GOOD
Example:
You say:I like Voodoo ID10-T wires best.
I say: Good for you!
Statement, claim : BAD
Example:
You say: Voodoo ID10-T wires make the highs brighter.
I say: Really, why should I believe you? Have you a FR Graph or done controlled listening test to indicate that?
If I have to explain again, you will move from being hard-headed to belligerent ;-) |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | HTguy
Apr 10, 2001 6:59 PM | | I clearly stated in the my first response that this was an opinion, so all of you cable cops can go on home now, nothing to see here, move along. IMO it looks like you're the hard-headed one, why would you assume I was making a statement? The moniker change was a joke, I was running a thread with mtrycrafts and you jumped in to his aid, kinda like when GCM came to your defense. You don't need to explain the difference in an opinion and a statement to me, but IMO you need to review this information with your team. It seems like opinions are not allowed here either. How boring! |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Rockwell
Apr 10, 2001 8:25 PM | | I will bring it up at our monthly meeting. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Jon Risch
Apr 8, 2001 10:54 AM | | All of this is just my personal opinion, based on my own experiences.
Both the IC and the speaker cable have their effects, and each ssytem reacts differently, so it is hard tosay which one has the most effect.
The Kimber 8TC is a fairly neutral cable, it is a tad on the bright or forward side, but only by comparison with a totally down the middle cable, that mythical beast so dearly sought.
The Kimber PBJ is known to definitely be on the bright side.
If the MIT cable was too warm for your tastes, then I suggest that you try JUST changing the interconnects, and check out Cardas, Synergistic Research, and Transparent. With just changing out the IC, you might even try the MIT again.
If you are of the mind that you want all your cables to be the same brand, then Cardas is definitely a good one to try.
Jon Risch |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | EH
Apr 8, 2001 11:10 AM | | Thanks for your help Jon. I will try your recommendation. I've never tried the Synergistic at home but had it demonstrated with very good results. I have not yet heard Transparent.
Just an observation but all too often this board gets strange where everyone recommends Home Depot or whatever. I've tries zip cord for the fun of it and it definitely is not in the same ball bark of a good aftermarket cable.
While on the subject of cables. What is a "low jitter" digital cable? Is such a thing readily available? Do you have a recommendation to go between transport and DAC - separate clocks. I currently run an XLO digital. Is the choice of the digital cable significant to fidelity? |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Jon Risch
Apr 8, 2001 10:04 PM | | A digital interconnect that had low jitter would have:
excellent shielding, so as to prevent any inteference from affecting the digital transistion timing, and hence, adding jitter.
low distortion dielectric, for similar reason as above, less energy storage/release issues to distort the waveform.
and a proper 75 ohms characteristic Z.
See:
http://members.nbci.com/Jon_Risch/jitter.html
and
for even more on jitter:
http://www.digido.com/jitteressay.html
AND
http://www.digido.com/wegetletters.html#anchor2484124
http://www.axon.nl/axon/axon_comp.nsf/whitepapers/whitepapers/$file/jitter.pdf
http://www.galstar.com/~ntracy/acg/AandE/npt.on.jitter2.htm
http://www.stereophile.com/fullarchives.cgi?280
(An archived Stereophile review, that shows measured jitter levels.)
http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/papers/jitter.pdf
(Talks about optical based jitter problems toward the end)
http://www.nanophon.com/audio/jitter92.pdf
http://www.nanophon.com/audio/diagnose.pdf
http://www.nanophon.com/audio/towards.pdf
http://www.homecinemachoice.com/frame.html?http://www.homecinemachoice.com/testbench/DVDPlayers/DVDSound.shtml
http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/appnotes-d/jittercu.asp
http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~martin/bibliography/digital/d_conversion.html
http://www.audioprecision.com/publications//audiotst/jan96/jan961.shtml
http://www.audiotest.com/publications/audiotst/dec99/jitter_theory.html
http://www.jitter.de/english/engc_navfr.html
(This site has many links to good references, as well as decent explanations of what jitter is, etc.)
Replication News Article on Jitter:
http://www.AudioAsylum.com/audio/general/messages/977.html
http://www.elantec.com/pages/apppdf/d40954.pdf
(Impedance variations of a short cable)
http://www.toshiba.com/taec/components/Datasheet/TOTX173.pdf
(One of the more popular TOSLINK optical components)
Digital Logic chip output waveforms and ground bounce info:
TI
http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/sdya010/sdya010.pdf
page29-32, waveform views of various devices, shows great shots of non-square square waves
Fairchild
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ms/MS/MS-541-MISC.pdf
Pages 10-16, digital logic waveforms, showing less than perfect logic signal transmission, ringing, ground bounce, etc. Esp p. 15-16
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/ms/MS/MS-539-MISC.pdf
Shows good waveforms on page 4, also t-line effects for 3 foot cables.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-831.pdf
Shows RF output of logic chips.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-754.pdf
Shows mis-termination results, and (best case) real world waveforms.
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-375.pdf
Clearly shows waveform abberations due to the real world.
info on voltage regulator transients, re digital audio and jitter.
http://www.cherrysemiconductor.com/product/PDF/CS-5233-3PDF.pdf page5
http://www.linear-tech.com/pdf/lt0117.pdf, page 5
http://www.national.com/ads-cgi/viewer.pl/ds/LM/LM117.pdf, page 4
http://www-s.ti.com/sc/psheets/slvs297a/slvs297a.pdf
Fig. 12 and Fig. 13
Jon Risch |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 8, 2001 2:02 PM | | >>>All of this is just my personal opinion, based on my own experiences.
Both the IC and the speaker cable have their effects, and each ssytem reacts differently, so it is hard tosay which one has the most effect.<<<<
BUt of course this is based on your own experiences or speculations as it were. You wouldn't have something more substantial to offer? Some/many personal experiences are unreliabe as they are based on biased perceptions. Does Big Foot come to mind? Alien abductions? Psychic reading? Homeop[athic medicines? Holistic healing? VanPraaghs readings? All based on personal experiences, right? |
| Everything of importance is based on personal experiences. | Audiophilander
Apr 9, 2001 9:35 AM | | Oh! I forgot, you don't believe in personal experience because it's subjective. Your knowledge was acquired from second hand sources (i.e., opinions you've read which you consider to be above reproach), correct? If one were to ask you your personal experience with the sound of any component, speaker, interconnect or cable you would respond that it isn't even necessary to OWN much less audition a stereo system to know the "facts", right? If I'm not mistaken (and I'm not) when pressed you would invoke one of those classic cop-out lines like "I don't need to reinvent the wheel", isn't that so?
Well, here this my perspective, which is at least as valuable (IMHO) as those opinions you are providing: If you are unwilling to demonstrate that you have empirical evidence to bolster those audio "perceptions" (i.e., basing your views solely on second or third hand opinions from writers you "subjectively" beleive) then you are out of your depth in questioning the views of engineers such as Jon Risch and others in the audio field who have the credentials to back up their views.
BTW, when I read your posts, Big Foot isn't the first image which comes to mind, but rather that disease which has plagued European bovine. One should hope that it doesn't spread from your fingertips to the minds of inquiring audio enthusiasts. ;-)
Cheers,
AuPh |
| Everything of importance is based on personal experiences. | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 12:00 PM | | Didn't expect much from you. You didn't disappoint me. |
| Everything of importance is based on personal experiences. | Eyespy
Apr 9, 2001 11:50 PM | | "Didn't expect much from you"
It's better that way. Being right is better than being disappointed :-) |
| "Credentials" = no substitute for objective analyses & data | Richard Greene
Apr 9, 2001 7:22 PM | | Men who declared the Earth was flat had great scientific credentials.
But they were also completely wrong.
Risch's credentials are meaningless concerning the audibility
of different wires. Electrical engineering degrees require
no hearing tests nor proof of superior hearing skills.
You pass some tests.
You get a diploma.
Risch's claim of being able to hear differences among different wire insulation materials (and rank them by sound quality) is the most extraordinary hearing claim I've heard, or read, in 35 years as an audiophile.
Can you hear that well?
Does that claim seem even slightly extraordinary to you?
I'm surprised you would mention Risch without revealing his extraordinary hearing claims -- intelligent audiophiles should
always be skeptical of extraordinary claims.
It would certainly interest me to find out just how Risch obtained so many wires that were identical except for insulation materials for his alleged double-blind comparisons. Who manufactures such wires? That's a mystery to me.
I believe Risch's claims are bogus and I would be willing to bet him $1,000 that he can not identify many different wire insulation materials under double-blind conditions, as he has claimed online.
He will never take me up on this challenge, but will probably attack
my character if he reads this post. He's all talk - but no proof and no witnesses.
I've challenged Risch's wire claims for several years and his responses have been consistently weak (example: Risch writes there were witnesses to his double-blind tests but they are unwilling to reveal their names on this website ... I suppose they fear we would ask them tough follow-up questions, causing them great stress!)
Risch has consistently ignored my request to name one person in the world who has heard wire differences under blind conditions with at least one witness (self-published internet claims are not likely to be trusted by any readers with common sense). I'm talking about differences among wires now -- not merely different wire insulation materials.
You attack Mtrycraft for his lack of first hand experience and empirical data. Well, Risch has no empirical data either -- just a
claim of extraordinary hearing ability (wire insulation differences) under blind conditions that not even one other person in the world
has claimed. |
| "Credentials" = no substitute for objective analyses & data | Steve H.
Apr 9, 2001 8:09 PM | | I don't agree with everything that Jon Risch has to say. But I have more respect for someone that has the credetials, and has done the work, over someone that goes to websites and spews second hand info almost word for word. |
| "Credentials" = no substitute for objective analyses & data | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 9:23 PM | | >>>, and has done the work, <<
What work? Lots of claims that cannot be duplicated. Some piece of work. Worthless, bogus. Cold fussion stuff. |
| "Credentials" = no substitute for objective analyses & data | Steve H.
Apr 10, 2001 4:18 PM | | It's YOUR opinion his work is worthless. Which is fine. |
| Correct second hand info better than wrong first hand info | Richard Greene
Apr 9, 2001 9:40 PM | | Do you believe Risch can hear so well that his ears are capable of
ranking perhaps 10 different wire insulation materials as to best and worst sound quality?
You must believe that claim to respect Risch.
I don't believe that claim and am willing to put my money
on the line. I will be the first person to post here if Risch takes my bet and proves me wrong. But he never will.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Risch has no proof at all.
Just extraordinary claims. |
| He absolutely WILL NOT put his money where his mouth is | Eyespy
Apr 10, 2001 12:05 AM | | He has turned down a very intriguing offer by Norm Strong, who was willing to fly to Jon's city, and witness Jon perform his hearing feats on his own system, in his own comfortable listening environment, using his own familiar recordings, and employing his own DBT protocols that he refers to so frequently in his internet postings audio forums (after all, he did an AES presentation on his proposed listening protocol). Norm would pay $1000 if Jon could audibly differentiate between expensive ICs and freebe ones, or expensive speaker wires, and cheap wires of similar ga and length. Of course, for someone with the claimed hearing abilities of Jon Risch, that should be money in the bank. Bada Bing, bada bang. EVERYTHING tipped to his advantage. On the other hand, if his claims could not be backed up, then of course, Mr. Risch would be owing Mr. Strong $1000Gs (another little Sopranos plug). Needless to say, a variety of inconsequential, vague, and nonmemorable excuses were offered as to why this would not be a fair test, yada yada, blah blah, Betty Boop, so, Mr. Risch declined. There's a surprise. |
| He absolutely WILL NOT put his money where his mouth is | DulceBuzz
Apr 10, 2001 12:00 PM | | I see someone posted asking if anyone had witness the ABX and Roger Russell test. No response yet. Don't you want to witness those too? Or are these people gods to you? Lifes a two way street. |
| He absolutely WILL NOT put his money where his mouth is | Eyespy
Apr 10, 2001 8:43 PM | | No, I don't need to witness those, too. I don't need to witness any tests that didn't prove the existance of alien abductions or bigfoot, either. I only want to have reliable witness to tests where such claims are possibly proven. Understand?
Life is a two way street? Well, you had best travel in only one direction on some of them, if you want to live long and avoid head-on collisions with Mack Trucks. |
| Correct second hand info better than wrong first hand info | Steve H.
Apr 10, 2001 4:22 PM | | Did I say that. If you read again, I said I don't agree with everything. So are you assuming that I agree with that? Someone that bases his views on so called cold hard facts is assuming? If you read any of my posts, I don't believe in golden ears, so, find something else to rag on me about. |
| Here's a challenge for you Richard!! | Adi
Apr 10, 2001 9:31 AM | | >>Risch has consistently ignored my request to name one person in the world who has heard wire differences under blind conditions with at least one witness (self-published internet claims are not likely to be trusted by any readers with common sense).
I asked this on several occations to mtry, he always ducks. Let's see if you can face up to it.
Show me ONE scientifically controlled DBT for wires. Any kind of wires and results doens't matter either.
Don't you think you are putting cart ahead of the horse? How can you find a person who can demonstrate differences in controlled DBTs someone tried to conduct one first.
You claim to have not heard any differences in your "auditions", JR and Vandy claim they did. So what? Their "auditions" are no worse than yours. None of them constitute a scientific proof.
Adi |
| With no proof of superiority, why buy expensive wires? | Richard Greene
Apr 14, 2001 10:59 AM | | Dozens and dozens of audiophiles have done blind wire auditions.
Not one has been able to hear wire differences under double-blind
volume-matched conditions, even though many thought they did during sighted auditions. That should be one consideration when
an audiophile thinks about spending money to "upgrade his wires".
It's extremely difficult for me to prove you can't hear the effects of expensive wires. So far it also seems to be extremely difficult
(impossible?) for golden ears like yourself to prove they do hear the results of buying expensive wires. A blind cable swap audition of borrowed expensive wires is so easy to do at home, it seems poitless to argue about this here. Unless we just like to argue! |
| Thanks | Adi
Apr 17, 2001 6:26 PM | | Irrespective of what our beliefs are, amateurish blind auditions do not qualify as scientific study. Simple question, do you believe in scientific studies? If so, do you agree science has a higher standard, and spouting these amateurish dbts as science (not you) is wrong?
Adi |
| "Credentials" = no substitute for objective analyses & data | Jon Risch
Apr 10, 2001 8:06 PM | | See:
http://forums.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@@.ee82072/15
Perhaps you are a bit miffed, hence this personal attack?
[ Risch's credentials are meaningless concerning the audibility
of different wires. Electrical engineering degrees require
no hearing tests nor proof of superior hearing skills. ]
Well, it sure helps to understand the physics, and the electrical circuit effects, not to mention how to use test and measurement gear properly, with repeatable and low error measurements.
Then there is always the fact that I not only have engineering credentials, but I have real world proof that I have done more than just 'audition' some cables with my buddies, I wrote, and presented an Audio Engineering Socienty paper on listening test methods. I clearly show that not only do I have the engineering credentials, but I have the basis for listening test credentials.
[ It would certainly interest me to find out just how Risch obtained so many wires that were identical except for insulation materials for his alleged double-blind comparisons. ]
Time after time, it does appear that I must be some sort of incredibly clever fellow. However, this was just sheer perseverance on my part.
The Belden catalog is a a very wide ranging one, and provided the opportunity to vary one cable factor at a time, with the same basic copper quality, etc. as a backdrop.
I had the opportunity to sample, and test, literally dozens of selected cable samples (some of which were custom 'to spec' samples), and then some years later, using a selected and paired down list, further samples to hone in even more.
For instance, Belden 9259 has bare copper braid and center wire, foamed PE insulation, etc., while Belden 89259 has foamed FEP teflon insulation. Identical capacitance and both 75 ohms. Hence, just a change in the insulating material.
Then there is yet another coaxial cable that has PE and tinned copper, and yet another with PE and bare copper, which allows a comparison with just tinned vs. bare copper, and so on and so on. Not too difficult, as long as one is willing to do the homework.
Yet you are now willing and ready (why am I surprised), to imply that I am lying or being deceptive, by the use of the word "alleged", just because you can't conceive of readily available commercial cables that would have the necessary single variable pairings. Too sad.
[ I believe Risch's claims are bogus and I would be willing to bet him $1,000 that he can not identify many different wire insulation materials under double-blind conditions, as he has claimed online. ]
Seems to be a popular sport these days, bait me with suppossed offers of money, no, wait, it's a bet, a wager. I am sorry Richard, but at least I will come right out and say it: I don''t believe you, nor is it worth my time, effort, or trouble to verify or take you up on your challenge, even if it were legitimate. There is not enough money to make me change my plans, or to waste my time, all for your personal satisfaction.
You have publically made various statements before, such as:
[ Risch has consistently ignored my request to name one person in the world who has heard wire differences under blind conditions... ]
and then either blown the response off (Vandy), or later, added additional conditions:
[ .... with at least one witness... ]
Essentially, my word is not good enough for you, nor is that of anyone else, we must now have witnesses. This is the way of the certified naysayer, they claim to be scientific, yet ignore science, they claim to have an open mind, until you try to get them to consider evidence they disagree with, they claim to be reasonable, logical, and so on, until you try to actually get them to make good on those claims, and then, more conditions, more excuses, more BS. Always upping the ante, raising the bar, and changing the rules.
No, I will not play your game, nor will I play childish head games with y |
| Part 2 | Jon Risch
Apr 10, 2001 8:20 PM | | Part 2
No, I will not play your game, nor will I play childish head games with you, or give your challenge any
serious consideration, it is only as good as the man behind it, and in your case, you have proven via past
personal attacks that your's is not an offer to be trusted.
I have nothing to prove, to you, or to mtry, or anyone else, I paid my dues, did my time, and reserve my
precious time, effort, and formal controlled listening sessions for my own use and benefit.
Jon Risch |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Pat D
Apr 11, 2001 6:30 PM | | and your consistent refusal to submit to same which makes some of us sceptical. Why should we believe you if no one can replicate your results? |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Jon Risch
Apr 13, 2001 1:31 PM | | I want to remind you that so far, not one of the naysayers has actually tried to replicate my results. Vandy did, using a lot of what I propose be done during the tests.
Those three tired old popular press articles used either the original/classic ABX method, or a pre-ABX method even cruder in technique. If you want to allow web anecdotes or other anecdotal evidence beyond those three tests, then it would be logical that my own anecdoite, and those of others, also be allowed to be considered as evidence for positives.
If we are talking web anecdotes, actually how many are there, and did any use my methods?
No modern attempts by naysayers at verifying the methods I used (and make available in my AES paper) have been done.
So when you say there is no verification of my results, this is an empty statement, similar to what A and GCM seemed to be saying. (see: http://forums.consumerreview.com/crforum?14@@.ee82f81/46 )
I fail to see how the lack of ANY contrary results, allows them to say the positive results are not valid because of this.
Before someone can say that there has been no verification of my results, someone has to actualy make the attempt using my methods and recommendations, until then , you or others are trying to use totally absent evidence as if it were null result evidence (which is then made into negative evidence, against all scientific principles).
Not scientific, which is what is supposed to be the basis behind all of this verification business.
Jon Risch |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Eyespy
Apr 13, 2001 9:08 PM | | It's not up to us to have to "verify" your results by employing your methods. Why should I, or anyone else besides you, when you won't submit to verification, despite ample opportunity, and you are the only one who claims to have successfully detected some of the disputed audible differences in question (as debated at AR) using your methods?. Your claimed hearing abilities for any such audible differences are not verified, regardless of the number of "naysayers" to employ your proposed methods, if the originating yeasayer won't submit to verification, are they? Your claim, not our burden. |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Jon Risch
Apr 14, 2001 7:45 PM | | My main point was that it would be misleading, at best, to say that no one has verified my results, by citing any of the existing popular press articles, since their methods and procedures do not even come close to what I outline.
Anything else than these three speaker cable articles, would certainly ALSO fall into the realm of an ancedote. A non-test, or failure to conduct a test, is not the same as a null. This is a factual and quite simple idea to grasp.
Jon Risch |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Eyespy
Apr 14, 2001 10:07 PM | | "My main point was that it would be misleading, at best, to say that no one has verified my results, by citing any of the existing popular press articles, since their methods and procedures do not even come close to what I outline."
I agree. I don't see anyone disagreeing with this statement. No one is using such citations for that purpose, are they? What IS being said is that YOU will not submit to verification of your results. It is being said that no one has verified your results because you refuse to allow it. The only way to verify that *you* recieved the results that *you* say you did, is for you to be observed in the process, but you know that won't happen, because you refused to be a party to such a verification.
"Anything else than these three speaker cable articles, would certainly ALSO fall into the realm of an ancedote. A non-test, or failure to conduct a test, is not the same as a null. This is a factual and quite simple idea to grasp."
I understand your position in this regard. You were given an opportunity to perhaps elevate your own "anecdotes" to the staus of a confirmed, or at least independantly observed and correlated anecdote. Heck, I'd consider it a bona fide proof, if you did successfully demonstrate your results in the presence of a disclosed third party with credibility, such as Norm Strong or Richard Greene. They certainly aren't going to claim that you did it if, in fact, you were unable to. |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | MajorDump
Apr 15, 2001 8:35 AM | | Although I am new to this forum, I have one question. You are asking Jon for witness to his results. I followed his links, I see what he is saying. My question is, have Norm Strong or Richard Greene witnessed the tests that came up null that are being talked about? Just being a Devils Advocate. |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Eyespy
Apr 15, 2001 8:48 AM | | Your question constitutes "just being a Devils Advocate" exactly how? I don't see it. |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | MajorDump
Apr 15, 2001 7:20 PM | | I just figured if they wanted to witness this Jon guys tests, they must of witnessed the other tests that are being refered to, or intend on witnessing them. |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | Eyespy
Apr 15, 2001 10:21 PM | | I'm afraid I don't follow your logic. There was a $1000 challange in front of Jon, by Norm Strong, which Jon refused, and now a $2000 challange by Richard Greene. All Jon has to do is demonstrate his claimed hearing abilities. You expect that others are supposed to run around and witness everytime someone doesn't claim to possess such extraordinary abilities to hear differences in wire insulations and one additional foot of Monster Cable? Again, forgive me, but I fail to see your point. |
| It's the lack of objective verification, Jon . . . | MajorDump
Apr 16, 2001 4:17 PM | | The results or why you want to witness his tests are of no matter to me. If you base your views on whatever tests you find to be true, if you have not witnessed them, you cannot expect someone to want to show you their tests, because your basing your view on literature and results someone else got. Since no one has come out and said they did, I can assume no one has witnessed the other tests. I have not seen the results of these DBT tests. At this point, I don't have my own opinion on it, because I haven't seen enough of both sides of the arguement. If someone could be so kind to send me the link to these DBT tests, maybe I could see what those are all about. I have my own opinion on cables themselves, but no opinion on this matter as of now. I have looked at some of Jon's work, I have to admit, some of what he says is pretty lofty, but not all. I cannot form a fair opinion on this subject unless I see what the other side is basing their point of view on. So please post the links to the DBT testing.
Thanks
MD |
| Mtrycraft interprets the Risch post | Richard Greene
Apr 14, 2001 1:32 PM | | ^^^^^^Risch wrote:
"I have nothing to prove..."
^^^^^^Mtrycraft's interpretation:
"I have proved nothing..."
_________________________________________
_________________________________________
^^^^^^Risch wrote:
"...I paid my dues, did my time..."
^^^^^^Mtrycraft's interpretation:
"...I paid my dues (at the local Lion's club),
did my time (in the local jail)..."
Note: Mtrycrafts did not really say these things. |
| There's a psychological term that describes your response... | Richard Greene
Apr 14, 2001 1:09 PM | | "Chicken" !
Buck ......... Buck ......Buck Buck ... Buck Buck Buck Buck
(I think that's what chickens sound like)
I didn't realize you had previously declined a $1,000 wager from
Norm Strong, so how about a $2,000 wager with me?
Perhaps only one hour of your time in your own home proving
that you can hear differences among wire insulation materials
in ten foot speaker wires under double-blind conditions
and you will be $2,000 richer! Easy money!
For me, that is.
It's not a "childish head game" to win $2,000 for an hour of listening
to your own stereo -- it's an opportunity to become nationally known
as the only proven "Platinum Ear"! They'd write about you in
Stereopile and The Absolute Surround.
I was looking forward to receiving the $1,000, although much of it would have been spent on the airfare to your home.
And I really needed the money.
I want to upgrade my wires.
heh heh |
| Note to the Audio-flounder | Richard Greene
Apr 9, 2001 9:48 PM | | Since you compared Mtry to "European bovine", I thought
Mtry should respond by changing your moniker to Audio-flounder.
Unfortunately I couldn't get through to Mtry because he's busy
studying an audio journal for his next post. |
| Usual worthless mtry post | paul
Apr 9, 2001 5:51 PM | | John answered the question, you have nothing to offer but negative thoughts. You are no good mtry, no help to others.
You do look silly trying to take John to task! Keep up the bad work, so others will know you for what you are.
p |
| No surprises here | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 9:26 PM | | your usual worthless post. You didn't disappoint anyone. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Bruce Burke
Apr 9, 2001 6:05 PM | | Cables should NEVER be used as tone controls......NEVER |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 9:27 PM | | But Jon has credentials. He said so. |
| Agreed. | Jon Risch
Apr 10, 2001 7:25 PM | | Just like some CD players are a bit on the aggressive or bright side, and some are very strong in the bass (all despite measuring within +/-0.1 dB or better from 20Hz to 20 kHz), some audio cables give the effect of a certain apparent tonal balance with respect to absolute neutrality.
Now, even if you were not aware of this, due to the usual flat-earth society kind of utter and total dependance on what the meter says, instead of what your ears tell you (after YOU could be deluded by YOUR hearing), you should have been able to pick up on the gist of the posted exchange, that the PBJ is on the bright side, in effect, they are the tone controls. Going to a cable with a reputation (one I concur with) for having a _very_ slightly warm sound, rather than being on the obviously bright side, would be a step in the right direction, less 'tone control' action so to speak.
BTW, none of the cables mentioned, including the much maligned MIT's (and Transparent, who also uses termination networks on their cables), deviate within the audio band by more than 0.2 dB according to the traditional simple amplitude response with frequency measurement, so your primary concern, that of maintianing flat FR, is met regardless.
However, within this simple flat FR paridigm, the various cables exhibit an apparent tonal tilt one way or the other, some are so slight as to be, for all intents and purposes, tonally neutral. However, these usually handle the other more subtle aspects of audio playback differently, such as more or less air or depth, different soundstage presentations, etc. This is where personal preference comes into play, since what each of us latches onto as important is different.
Jon Risch |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 8, 2001 2:07 PM | | >>>female voive with slurred sss. <<<
You really think this is a cable function? Hardly, nor the other symptoms you mentioned. The sss can occur naturally and be recorded. Have you never noticed that at a live performance, not amplified? I have, very noticeable at times. And, then again, close micing can also cause this to happen. Or some speaker FR anomalies. You will be chasing the cable games and that is not your problem. But, have at it. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | on the fence
Apr 8, 2001 4:46 PM | | For a warmer sound you might want to try putting your cables in the oven at about 150 deg for about 15 minutes.For a more neutral sound warm your cables but freeze your cd or vinyl for that neutralizing effect.All kidding aside though,until the recording industry starts making some good mass market recordings I don't think any cable or component is going to make a bit of difference whether yous system sounds bright or warm or whatever.on my system some recordings sound terribly bright to the point I can't listen to them and others sound muddy and laid back to the point I fall asleep.I just can't see how cables are going to fix recording problems but then again I could be wrong.
on the fence |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | mtrycrafts
Apr 9, 2001 12:04 PM | | >>>All kidding aside though,until the recording industry starts making some good mass market recordings I don't think any cable or component is going to make a bit of difference whether yous system sounds bright or warm or whatever.on my system some recordings sound terribly bright to the point I can't listen to them and others sound muddy and laid back to the point I fall asleep.I just can't see how cables are going to fix recording problems but then again I could be wrong. <<<<<
You hit the problem on the head:-)
How is one going to chase the different problems from one recording to the next? If one doesn't like the recording, either they find better ones or record their own to their liking:-)
But this doesn't sell cables, or hardware, does it:-) |
| Those who sit on fence get hit by mud thrown from both sides | Confucius Say
Apr 9, 2001 9:51 PM | | nt |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | ChrisR
Apr 8, 2001 5:25 PM | | Monster, Mseries or Z series is probably what you are looking for. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Bruce Burke
Apr 9, 2001 6:19 PM | | No, what he's looking for is tone controls on his equipment. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | ChrisR
Apr 17, 2001 7:58 PM | | true, it could be. but the tone controls introduce noise; it's much better to bypass them. maybehe does not care. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | minoan
Apr 14, 2001 11:43 AM | | I also found the Kimber PBJ bright & harsh; so were the Kimber Hero interconnects (tho not as bad). Don't know how the PBJ got all the rave reviews in the American & British audio press. Yes, Cardas wire sounds more full & warm - without losing detail.
Get the Golden Cross interconnects which are slightly warmer than the Golden Reference, and less expensive. For cables buy Cardas Cross. Almost as good as the GC (slightly less detailed and less "beefy") but more affordable. Avoid Cardas Neutral Reference as it can sound somewhat bright like the Kimber (tho not as bad).
There's not much difference on the music (in my experience) from the perspective of interconnects vs cables. Try the Cross Cables first as this would be a cost-effectice approach. Regarding interconnects, keep in mind that you don't have to change ALL of 'em to reduce brightness. Try one pair of the GC with the remaining Kimber and see if the change suits you.
The 2 components in my set-up that can be described as "awesome" are the Golden Cross interconnects and the PS Audio P300 power plant.
-Minoan
speakers: Totem Rokks
cd: JoLida JD601A
pre: Melos SHA-1
amp: Musical Fidelity A3cr
interconnects: Cardas GC
cable: Cardas Cross
misc: PS Audio P300,
Bright Star Air Mass (for cd) |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Eyespy
Apr 14, 2001 7:30 PM | | Where do people come up with stuff like this? Amazing. A potential Pulitzer in Fiction Writing. |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | minoan
Apr 16, 2001 10:00 AM | | Didn't you used to write for Stereo Review....? |
| re: Warmer Sounding Cable Recommen | Eyespy
Apr 16, 2001 10:56 PM | | Did I come across too abrasive? Sorry 'bout that. |
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