|   What's the point? | Robh3606
Apr 22, 2001 5:42 PM | | Whats with the statistics? Who cares if something can be proved or not is it that important? We are all in this for the fun right. So why get hung up in all the BS. You can slant statistics anyway you want depending on the sample size and criteria you establish. Doesn't mean a thing so why waist time on it? There is not enough room in the forum for opossite opinions without it degrading into text book quotes! Why not just accept the person's opinion disagree if you want and move on. A hearty discussion is fun it just seams somewhere the fun part gets lost. |
| re: What's the point? | mtrycrafts
Apr 22, 2001 8:10 PM | | >>>There is not enough room in the forum for opossite opinions without it degrading into text book quotes! <<<<<
So you only want it your way? Kind of one way, aren't you?
>>>Who cares if something can be proved or not is it that important?<<<
Not at all important if alien abductions are real or not, if van Praagh really talks to the spirit world, psychics are really able to do what they claim, or 'golden ears' really hear what they claim. Naw, who care what outlandish claims some make? Have at it, the more gullible shoppers the better. What are you selling?
>>>? We are all in this for the fun right. <<<
Yes we are. Aren't you having fun yet?
>>>So why get hung up in all the BS. <<<
So, if you cannot understand it or disagree with it, then it is "BS?" |
| What's with the Questions? | robh3606
Apr 23, 2001 9:53 AM | | Hello mtrycrafts.
Do you always respond in questions? What is your opinion? Do you disagree with me or am I supposed to read through your questions to guess what you meant?
1. I don't want it my way only. Gets boring with only one opinion present. What would you do without the Golden Ears? I do think we could be more open to what others say if we agree or not. As far as the references go well I have learned from some of those references in posts and think in that context they are useful. Its the, I am right your are wrong attitudes that I don't like where they are used like weapons. It the one up man ship. Sometimes I feel like I am watching a tennis match that no one will ever win.
2. We are not talking about alien abductions. In the great scheme of things the question of if one can hear differences in cables is small potatoes. As it is small potatoes I think it should be treated as such. If the golden ears make claims that cannot be proved to your satisfaction well I think you should remember that they are just claims. They have as much right to post those claims as you do to dispute them. Each of us has to make our own decision on this. I do admire your passion and I can understand what you mean to protect the gullible but any post in this forum won't do that. We all have to make our own mistakes to learn from them. I am selling nothing but you will not stop the one's who are from making any claim they can legally get away with to sell product. It's called business, and if someone cannot see it for what it is, well thats where " Buyer Beware" comes from. It does not take much life experience to figure that one out.
3. I am having fun responding to your post and of course with my rig. I have seen many exchanges where a person gets flamed at for posting an opinion and the guy who flames is having a good time but the guy on the receiving end is not. I think some people take this a little too serious. That's what I mean by fun.
4. BS was a poor choice of words. You are correct. We all have our weak moments. No that's not what I meant. What I meant was I think we should all be a little more tolerant and not get caught up in the I'm right your wrong attitude in a lot of the post's. We can agree to disagree much more politely than we often see. For most of us this is a hobby not our life's work. |
| Go to Audio Asylum! | HTguy
Apr 23, 2001 11:23 AM | | If you just want to talk cables for fun, I suggest you go to www.audioasylum.com . That is the subjectivist forum, this tends to be the objectivist forum. |
| No thanks they practice censorship there. | Robh3606
Apr 23, 2001 3:05 PM | | This is an open forum. I like it better. And fun is the key word. Why can't I talk cables for fun. Is it that serious a subject that I can't or should not? |
| No thanks they practice censorship there. | Dupper
Apr 23, 2001 4:24 PM | | Well some here take it serious. I hear some have been arguing cables for years. Can you say NO LIFE!!! |
| No thanks they practice censorship there. | mtrycrafts
Apr 23, 2001 10:36 PM | | For years? Must be new. This debate has been ongoing for 20+ years. But it is not a debate, really. The golden ears just cannot support any of their claims, so it is rather one sided debate. Just like any other consumer marketplace. Homeopathic medications been around a 100 years or so. No debate about its uselessness, but people still make claims and it is still around and sold and people still fall for this nonsense. |
| No thanks they practice censorship there. | Dupper
Apr 24, 2001 7:34 AM | | Must of hit a nerve with you, your the first to respond. LOL!!
If there is no debate, then why are you debating it? |
| No thanks they practice censorship there. | TinHere
Apr 24, 2001 2:29 PM | | I'm not in on it much, but he does seem to represent an alternative to preferencial opinions based on unproven facts. Why should he? He sees no rewards in it, except maybe he enjoys it. |
| Rather strong claim. | Jon Risch
Apr 23, 2001 4:42 PM | | It is a moderated board, and is subject to some very simple rules designed to prevent the kinds of flame fests and personal attacks that can go on here and at other wide-open sites on the web.
Some people can not follow even these very simple rules, and as a result their posts may get deleted. These instances are VERY rare, and every effort is made to avoid doing so, but when flagrant violations occur, and they break the moderated board rules, then sometimes, they do get deleted. Cuss words, direct slanderous attacks, etc, these get deleted summarily, as do most of the obvious and major direct viloations of the rules.
That is not censorship, just a more civilized take on the internet anarchy.
Jon Risch |
| I don't think so and why is censorship a dirty word? | Robh3606
Apr 23, 2001 6:03 PM | | Hello John
If I posted a topic in the Cable Asylum and it turned into a debate about DBT that topic would be deleted would it not? It would be deleted because it is clearly posted that there are no DBT discussions allowed in that forum. That is a form of censorship.
I am not saying censorship is a bad thing depending on how it is used. As an example of Censorship is the movie ratings. They provide parents a way to protect children from content they don't want them to see. So why is censorship automatically a bad thing? If the decission was made to control the flames to keep everyone civilized thats OK with me. It is clearly posted in the forum as it should be. It's their forum and they have a right to set-up those rules. I would never post something with this content in the AA Cable Asylum forum because of the possibillity of it being deleted because DBT could become part of the discussion. Thats why I prefer to post here about this subject in this forum. |
| I don't think so and why is censorship a dirty word? | Jon Risch
Apr 23, 2001 8:40 PM | | [ If I posted a topic in the Cable Asylum and it turned into a debate about DBT that topic would be deleted would it not? ]
Actually, if your post was not directly about DBT, then your post would not be deleted. Subsequent posts that chose to bring up the subject for the sole purpose of fanning the flames probably would be.
In some cases, folks deliberately posted initially about DBT's, and when such a post was later removed, responses to that post might have also ended up dissappearing, hard to keep such response posts intact, and they certainly don't make much sense anymore.
Censorship is one of those negative connotation words, and in today's PC atmosphere, it implies that things are being done arbitrarily. The no DBT rule at the Cable Asylum is just that, a rule, designed to try and avoid the endless spirals that the subject tends to generate.
One thing that seems to be overlooked, is that the rule cuts both ways, and no posts that spell out all the problems and issues with DBT's are allowed either.
BTW, If someone felt compelled to post about DBT's, as far as I know, these are not banned in the General section, or other sections, so it is not like there could not be some sort of relevant discussion, but many of the regular inmates and visitors do not seem to be overjoyed when they do pop up, and I get the feeling that many who frequent the board would just as soon not have to deal with the wast of bandwidth and board space.
Jon Risch |
| I think I've got it now! | Markw*
Apr 24, 2001 8:19 AM | | In the cable asylum, it's perfectly acceptable to discuss the cut, color, texture and material of emperor's new cloths but it's not acceptable to question wether or not he's actually wearing any.
Jon, Jon, Jon... and you wonder why you are met with such opposition here? Because over here your opinions are just as good as anyone elses. It's a more level playing field. ... but you still offer no real proof, just anecdotes like anyone else. You just are better at the technobabble than most. Much like a good psychic deals in generalities.
In the end, your "proof" is no more than your personal tests done with no witness'. As far as your great "personal" testing procedure.. you may have spoke publicly about it at but whatever became of it? Was it adopted as a new standard or was it just left to lie there?
At least Richard Greene's testing was done in the company of others (some quite famous in the audio field, I believe) but you dispute their findings. Seems to me that they have more valid "proof" than you. |
| I think I've got it now! | mtrycrafts
Apr 24, 2001 10:42 PM | | No less than Floyd Toole has done wire tests in the past as has John Dunlavy and many others. Nothing there. All well understood phenomenon. Jon just cannot accept reality or he looses face. |
| Rather strong claim. | Dupper
Apr 23, 2001 6:51 PM | | I would imagine me saying someone has no life would only offend the people that have no life. Don't know if that is a good or a bad thing. Maybe an awakening. |
| The problem is... | GCM
Apr 24, 2001 4:56 AM | | by the moderator's own admission, the rules are enforced selectively. It's fine to flame Mtrycrafts over there, but not one of the inmates. As I'm sure you know, I got admonished for merely posting a one line response that I'd had good results with Target cables. The rules would be fine if they were applied evenly, but as I was told, it's their playground and they can enforce the rules however they want. |
| The problem is... | mtrycrafts
Apr 24, 2001 10:44 PM | | Of course they are one way, their way. Nothing new, nothing that is surprising. |
| But a proper claim | Bruce Burke
Apr 24, 2001 5:39 AM | | Yes, the rules are simple there.
If you disagree with the philosphy of the moderator, the thread is terminated.
If you try and introduce scientific principles or methodology, the thread is terminated.
Some civilized approach.
The ONLY good thing about their board is that it doesn't take a minute to process and display...... |
| But a proper claim | Jon Risch
Apr 24, 2001 10:51 AM | | [ If you disagree with the philosphy of the moderator, the thread is terminated.
If you try and introduce scientific principles or methodology, the thread is terminated. ]
These are both false statements.
Since you do not have much of a history to go back on with the Asylum, I fail to see how you would have a good feel for what goes on there.
Just some bile perhaps?
Jon Risch |
| But a proper claim | Bruce Burke
Apr 25, 2001 12:32 PM | | But a proper claim
[ If you disagree with the philosphy of the moderator, the thread is terminated.
If you try and introduce scientific principles or methodology, the thread is terminated. ]
These are both false statements.
Since you do not have much of a history to go back on with the Asylum, I fail to see how you would have a good feel for what goes on there.
Just some bile perhaps?
Jon Risch
BULLSHIT JON,
I've personally witnessed it. |
| You're right to a degree..... | Chris Garrett
Apr 25, 2001 1:13 PM | | The Cable Asylum is for people who generally believe that some differences between cables can be heard through their systems. People who want proof and expect to get it from 'our' board, probably have to go elsewhere. There is a certain 'suspension of disbelief' that has to occur before one should probably visit.
I believe that I've heard differences between some of the dozen or so mid level cables that I've had in my system but I haven't gone through the arduous process of doing a controlled DBT. Instead, I listen for hours over the course of days with different types of music and with vinyl, CD and SACD. Somewhat like driving a car and listening to its sound, then noting something that is out of the norm. This is the all I'm willing to do and honestly, I haven't heard an audible difference between some of my cables. Maybe they're constructed in a similar manner?
Chris |
| That's your opinion.. | HTguy
Apr 23, 2001 5:33 PM | | It is an open forum and I like it too, even though as a subjectivist I am heavily outnumbered here. I have never had any post censored at Audio Asylum. You might have had a bad experience, but I'm not familiar with the situation, so I won't comment. I think both forum have their place, but in general the subjectivist hang at AA and the objectivist hang here. To mix the two groups together can be hazardous to your health. |
| You cannot discuss DBT in the Cable Asylum | Robh3606
Apr 23, 2001 6:14 PM | | That may be my opinion but that is a form of censorship. I don't see how it can be called anything else but. I have not had a post censored because I always try to stay within the bounds of reason and honestly don't post often. When I have the responses have all been friendly and often helpfull. I am not saying censoship is bad as they have the right to establish any rules they want. |
| No, it's a fact | GCM
Apr 24, 2001 7:00 AM | | http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/general/messages/97044.html |
| Go to Audio Asylum! | mtrycrafts
Apr 23, 2001 10:06 PM | | Why are you still here and come back for more? |
| Go to Audio Asylum! | HTguy
Apr 24, 2001 3:58 AM | | I'm here to have fun, why are you still here? I just like to inform people that this is not the only forum for information. What's your problem with AA? Your comments aren't welcome there? You don't want anyone listening to anyone else's opinion but yours? Relax. |
| Go to Audio Asylum! | mtrycrafts
Apr 24, 2001 10:54 PM | | >>>I'm here to have fun, why are you still here? <<<
You could have fooled me. I like it here. Is that OK with you?
>>>? I just like to inform people that this is not the only forum for information. <<<<
I think you are doing more than htis. |
| Opinion? Mtry? | HTguy
Apr 25, 2001 3:54 AM | | Better watch your step mtry, the above posts look an awful lot like opinions. Where are your facts? Have you DBT'd your statements? "I think you are doing more than this." That sounds like a opinion to me, and what the hell are you doing thinking? Stick with what you read in books and don't try to develop any opinions, it's not you. |
| Opinion? Mtry? | Dupper
Apr 25, 2001 11:34 AM | | LOL!! |
| Go to Audio Asylum! | Rockwell
Apr 25, 2001 11:12 AM | | Yes, he is a master baiter, who enjoys get a rise from members using his oral "skills." |
| Rockwell! Are you Gay? | HTguy
Apr 25, 2001 2:02 PM | | What's the deal with that post? This stuff give you a woody? |
| No, not gay, ...not that there is anything wrong with that. | Rockwell
Apr 25, 2001 2:10 PM | | What gave you that idea? I think your mind is in the gutter, mr. ht. |
| Nonsense | GCM
Apr 23, 2001 12:16 PM | | What a load or rubbish.
"I do admire your passion and I can understand what you mean to protect the gullible but any post in this forum won't do that."
There have been numerous posts from people thanking various posters here for advising on particular purchases, including less expensive cables.
"We all have to make our own mistakes to learn from them."
Why? People come here looking for advice. Why not provide it?
"I am selling nothing but you will not stop the one's who are from making any claim they can legally get away with to sell product."
Many claims are illegal, they're just not prosecuted. You may want to look up the word ethics in a dictionary. It does apply to reputable businesses.
"It's called business, and if someone cannot see it for what it is, well thats where " Buyer Beware" comes from. It does not take much life experience to figure that one out. "
In the US and most countries, there are governmental agencies to prevent customers from being abused or injured from companies with that attitude. Just think what you may be eating were it not for the Department of Agriculture or the FDA. Unfortunately, policing every industry is not possible. A lot of people come here in an effort to educate themselves. Mtrycrafts and others perform a valuable service warning these people that there are charlatans afoot. Simply citing caveat emptor after the fact, hardly provides a valuable service. |
| Nonsense | John T
Apr 23, 2001 2:11 PM | | tell me what all the protesting is about so i can put my feable brain to work and protest right along.(can't we all get along.)all have a nice day.who loves ya baby. |
| Nonsense | Robh3606
Apr 23, 2001 3:42 PM | | "There have been numerous posts from people thanking various posters here for advising on particular purchases, including less expensive cables."
Good point but the advice given was not the sole reason for the decission. At least I hope not because it shouldn't be. Most people are a good deal more sophisticated than that.
"Why? People come here looking for advice. Why not provide it?"
Ok There is nothing wrong with giving advice.
But for as many posts with one viewpoint there is an equal number for the opposite view. So make up your own mind.
"Many claims are illegal, they're just not prosecuted. You may want to look up the word ethics in a dictionary. It does apply to reputable businesses."
How it is illegal to say your speakers, cables etc. sound better based on your opinion?
"In the US and most countries, there are governmental agencies to prevent customers from being abused or injured from companies with that attitude. Just think what you may be eating were it not for the Department of Agriculture or the FDA. Unfortunately, policing every industry is not possible. A lot of people come here in an effort to educate themselves. Mtrycrafts and others perform a valuable service warning these people that there are charlatans afoot. Simply citing caveat emptor after the fact, hardly provides a valuable service."
We are talking audio not public safety. The FTC does already.Thats where the power ratings come from. Remember the ridiculous power claims in the early 70's?
All of the posters provide a valuable service buy posting. You get to see both sides of an issue. These forums are a great asset to us all.
I don't think anyone needs to be protected from advertising. Anyone over the age of 10 knows not to beleive advertising copy. |
| Nonsense | TinHere
Apr 23, 2001 9:13 PM | | I wasn't sure what extent cables could improve a system until I came here. I saved a lot money, now my system sounds better to me [of human ears], and I no longer miss what can't be heard. Thanks guys. |
| What's with the Questions? | mtrycrafts
Apr 23, 2001 10:32 PM | | >>>>Do you always respond in questions?<<<
Always? Not at all. You should read more of my posts. But, I do like to ask lots of questions, yes. At times, questions makes one think and come to the appropriate conclusions without giving them the direct answer. An interesting learning process when a little nudge, a question allows one to find the answer.
>>>What would you do without the Golden Ears?<<<<
Plenty:-)
>>>I do think we could be more open to what others say if we agree or not.<<<
Oh, should not take too long to evaluate the merits of what is said, especially when it is not new territory and has been stated many times before by others. It doesn;t take too long to analize 2+2.
>>>> As far as the references go well I have learned from some of those references in posts and think in that context they are useful. Its the, I am right your are wrong attitudes that I don't like where they are used like weapons. It the one up man ship. Sometimes I feel like I am watching a tennis match that no one will ever win.<<<
At time this cannot be helped, some will just never give up their belief system, regardless of the evidence against it. Difficult to counter someones faith, unless they are open and want to learn.
>>>2. We are not talking about alien abductions.<<<
But we are talking about audio hype, mythology and nonsense and all those unsupported and proven claims. So, it is very similar indeed.
>>>> In the great scheme of things the question of if one can hear differences in cables is small potatoes. As it is small potatoes I think it should be treated as such.<<<<
I agree. So is alien abductions, etc. But one must deal with it and not pass it off as small potatoes.
>>>>> If the golden ears make claims that cannot be proved to your satisfaction well I think you should remember that they are just claims. They have as much right to post those claims as you do to dispute them.<<<<
And I don;t stop them from posting and I do question and dispute them. And, since they do make testable claims, not preferences, I need to do this. What else should I overlook?
>>>>> Each of us has to make our own decision on this.<<<
I don't force anyone to do anything. I give them the information to make informed choices. Nothing more. They don't want to listen, they are on their own.
>>>> I do admire your passion and I can understand what you mean to protect the gullible but any post in this forum won't do that.<<<<
Disagree. Many do learn. Many minds are changed. Many appreciate all the inputs.
>>>> We all have to make our own mistakes to learn from them.<<<
Wrong. We don't have to. We are smart enough, some of us anyhow, to learn from other's mistakes. Where would we be if we'd have to reinvent the wheel at every turn so we can lear that lesson. No, I'd rather not get drunk and drive to learn that lesson either or countless others.Sorry, don't buy into this at all.
>>>>I am selling nothing but you will not stop the one's who are from making any claim they can legally get away with to sell product. It's called business, and if someone cannot see it for what it is, well thats where " Buyer Beware" comes from. It does not take much life experience to figure that one out.<<<<
That is what you think. Unfortunately humans are too gullible and have a difficult time with not falling prey over and over. You know how huge a chunk this takes out of evryones pocket, unsupported hype, mythology and bs claims? Turn on your TV and see some of the investigations into fraud after fraud. Look at the infomertials on TV.
>>>>3. I am having fun responding to your post and of course with my rig.<<<<
That is great. Fun is one reason for being here:-)
>>>> I have seen many exchanges where a person gets flamed at for posting an opinion and the guy who flames is having a good time but the guy on the receiving end is not. I think some people take this a lit |
| What is DBT? (nt) | Lovan
Apr 24, 2001 2:23 AM | | |
| DBT = Double Blind Test | John McHugh
Apr 24, 2001 8:08 AM | | A form of listening comparison where neither the listener nor the administrator knows the identity of the items under comparison. Multiple trials are used to determine whether the listener can identify a particular element vs. some reference at a better success rate than random guessing would allow. The double blind protocol minimizes the possibility that something other than sound might corrupt the results. |
| aka BTs4Ds | hifitommy
Apr 28, 2001 6:34 PM | | thats blind tests for dummies. ;^)
.......regards...tr |
| aka BTs4Ds | Eyespy
Apr 28, 2001 8:23 PM | | See? You qualify. :-) |
| |
