|   Can anyone hear a difference... | Musika
Nov 24, 2001 8:17 AM | | ...between ANYTHING???
Gawd...The more I read here, the more I wonder how many of you are at least partially deaf.
I once purchased a pair of Thiel CS2.3s (Yes, I know that belongs in the "Speaker" section, but please hear me out...if you're able...). I found them to be nearly unbearable in the high and mid frequencies after semi-long periods (2 hours, maybe) of listening, particularly while listening to anything other than New Age (which I don't care for much...). When I informed the dealer that I wished to return them for that reason, he impolitely insisted that the Thiels were "excellent speakers!!!!!". This I did not debate; I merely told him in no uncertain terms that they were not for me, and that I wished to return them. I was well within the return period, so (I believe) he tried to convince me that after 6-8 weeks of "burn-in", I'd love 'em as much as "everyone" else does. Well, duh. After I remarked that this would put me well *outside* of the return period, he assured me that he'd make an exception if necessary (which would NOT be necessary in his mind, I feel safe in saying...). Anyway...
Obviously, he had a reason to argue with me regarding the "quality" of the Thiels: he wanted to keep my money! So I'm relatively sure that MANY of you will quickly point out that my tale is useless...so I ask you to please read on with an open mind. Even if he had not been the seller, I would bet that he'd maintain his stance re: the Thiels: "They're EXCELLENT! How could you not hear that???" To be fair to myself, I know that there was a fairly long list of folks waiting for this model of Thiels. So his "loss" (if any) would be minimal. In addition, after I asked to listen to other (mostly higher-priced) loudspeakers, he flatly refused to demo them for me! Why? He, at that point, stood to reap even greater $$$ rewards. He's the owner of a business. Why wouldn't he enjoy extra bucks, and why wouldn't he want me to be happy with my purchase so that I'd likely become a repeat customer??? Makes no sense...Soooooo.....Here's my point:
This man was so stubborn, closed-minded, egotistical, and had such a need to be "right" that he basically shot himself in the foot and didn't even mind it, as I returned the Thiels for a full refund and have not visited his elegant establishment since. He was RIGHT, dammit, and NO ONE would ever say otherwise! The Thiel specs, after all, proved his claims!!! And nothing was more important to him than being right...As sole owner of a high-end audio/video store, his lack of musical appreciation/knowledge was astounding to me. Nor did he seem to care that much about financial success. He just had to be RIGHT.
(I later heard that the man in question had, years earlier, lost most of his upper frequency hearing and that he didn't even own an audio system for his home. Granted, this info was never substantiated by him or by concrete "proof"...but I DID find it quite interesting, though it obviously proves nothing.)
Just a quaint anecdote, mostly intended for the closed-minded and self-righteous amongst us...NOT INTENDED TO BE USED AS PROOF OF ANYTHING! |
| Speakers are one thing, | Dick Hertz
Nov 24, 2001 8:34 AM | | Wall plugs, power cords, and speaker wires are quite another. Loudspeakers are probably the EASIEST component to hear differences between brands. Choosing a loudspeaker is a very subjective matter. If there's one component where "One man's meat is another man's poison", loudspeakers are it. I don't think anyone would doubt your ability to not like the Thiels. (Of course it's entirely likely the salesman WAS right and you're just deaf!) |
| Speakers are one thing, | Musika
Nov 24, 2001 9:41 AM | | Well, as expected, you missed the point of my post entirely. I agree that speakers are the easiest component in which most hearing people will notice differences. How silly of me to think that most of you could ever get past my example of components...
The actual point was meant to demonstrate how far a person will go to convince themselves (and others, I guess) that their way is the only way, and that there could never possibly be any other way despite the fact that people hear differently and have different preferences and belief systems. In my example, the man willingly lost a potentially loyal customer (not to mention $3600.) mainly because he was too pigheaded to admit that there is no right or wrong when choosing speakers (within reason, of course), and that he was incorrect in indicating that Thiels are quality speakers with which everyone (me, specifically) should be happy. From your post, Dick, I would tend to think that you'd agree that speakers do sound different, and that Thiels could be disliked. That's just peachy, but it has nothing to do with what I was trying to convey.
It was never a debate on my part as to whether or not speakers (Thiels, in this case) sound different to different ears, but you seem to be focusing upon that part of my post for some reason. Maybe because everyone will agree that you're absolutely right (myself included)???
Just for you, Dick...The same man insisted that a 1-meter run of Straightwire Rhapsody II interconnects (between CDP and pre-amp) would "soften out the harshness" that I couldn't tolerate. While I found that hard to believe, I tried it. If anything, it made the "harshness" even more apparent. Those also went back...
Now...any comments on this post? Do you read me, or are you prepared to argue that interconnects are all the same, hence, once again missing the point entirely???
When I asked the question, "Can anyone hear a difference...between ANYTHING?", it was not intended to be taken so literally. This is ridiculous...but amusing. |
| My apologies. | Dick Hertz
Nov 24, 2001 12:53 PM | | I attempted an answer/comment on your post as I understood it. Next time I'll stand back and let the more erudite posters here take a whack at it instead. Sorry to waste your time. |
| My apologies. | Musika
Nov 25, 2001 4:35 AM | | No apologies necessary, Dick. In fact, I apologize to you for dishing out such a hasty, smarta** reply. I guess I'm just sick of the "Norm Strong Syndrome" already, and perhaps misdirected my frustration at you. In my opinion, no one's opinion is a waste of time...but their so-called facts might be! |
| I feel honored | Norm Strong
Nov 25, 2001 3:28 PM | | Not many get to have a syndrome named after them. It's not quite as nice as an "effect", but, in the absence of the "Strong Effect", I'll settle for the "Norm Strong Syndrome." Thank you Mr. Musika! |
| I feel honored | Musika
Nov 26, 2001 6:14 AM | | "I feel honored"
I was afraid of that...
Now, Norm, you've got your own fan club (did you remember to thank Warren Warren for that one???) AND your own syndrome!!! How excited you must feel to be getting such attention for being "who you are"...(the only half-decent way to put it...)!!!
"Thank you Mr. Musika!"
No need to thank me, and no need to call me "Mr."! After all...you're the one with all the titles and such! Congrats!!! |
| Speakers are one thing, | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:22 PM | | "despite the fact that people hear differently"
How so?Their threshold of detection is different? Then you are correct.
" and have different preferences and belief systems. "
Yes, there are different preferences and beliefs but facts matter more than beliefs, you disagree?
And, just for your information, you need to read the research done by Toole on how close and similar preferences are for speakers, when one is not biased and hindered by the eyes.
"The same man insisted that a 1-meter run of Straightwire Rhapsody II interconnects (between CDP and pre-amp) would "soften out the harshness" that I couldn't tolerate. While I found that hard to believe, I tried it. If anything, it made the "harshness" even more apparent. Those also went back"
But then you were hindered by bias, not objective through a DBT, right.
"or are you prepared to argue that interconnects are all the same,"
Please show evidence that they are audibly different. Your example is not evidence, but an unreliable experience. |
| Speakers are one thing, | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:13 PM | | "Choosing a loudspeaker is a very subjective matter. "
And much more difficult to DBT:) Although Toole can and places like PSB and Paradigm can:) |
| This is ridiculous...but amusing... | skippy
Nov 24, 2001 11:03 AM | | <b>Can anyone hear a difference...
...between ANYTHING???</b>
You have clearly asked a question, so I am not missing the point by answering it.
Most would agree they can hear differences between speaker, as has already been pointed out. I can also hear the difference between components driven beyond their capabilities (clipping for example). Last I can usually hear a difference between poorly designed/cheaply made components and their well designed/made counterparts.
<b>Gawd...The more I read here, the more I wonder how many of you are at least partially deaf.</b>
Sometimes I wonder if people who hear differences that do not exist are at least partially mad.
<b>I once purchased a pair of Thiel CS2.3s I found them to be nearly unbearable in the high and mid frequencies after semi-long periods (2 hours, maybe) of listening. When I informed the dealer that I wished to return them for that reason, he impolitely insisted that the Thiels were "excellent speakers!!!!!". This I did not debate; I merely told him in no uncertain terms that they were not for me, and that I wished to return them.
This man was so stubborn, closed-minded, egotistical, and had such a need to be "right" that he basically shot himself in the foot and didn't even mind it, as I returned the Thiels for a full refund and have not visited his elegant establishment since. He was RIGHT, dammit, and NO ONE would ever say otherwise! The Thiel specs, after all, proved his claims!!! And nothing was more important to him than being right...As sole owner of a high-end audio/video store, his lack of musical appreciation/knowledge was astounding to me. Nor did he seem to care that much about financial success. He just had to be RIGHT.</b>
Yes, there are many arrogant pricks in the world of home audio. He tried the old "burn-in" and "try these special cables" tricks probably because he thought you were as gullible as the rest of his customers. He is obviously not an objectivist, so I guess I'm missing your point too.
<b>The actual point was meant to demonstrate how far a person will go to convince themselves (and others, I guess) that their way is the only way</b>
Does this only apply to objectivists?
<b>In my example, the man willingly lost a potentially loyal customer (not to mention $3600.) mainly because he was too pigheaded to admit that there is no right or wrong when choosing speakers</b>
Is your point simply <i>to each his own</i>? I won't argue with you there. I will argue if you (or anyone) comes here passing off opinions, totally unsupported by science, as facts.
Whoops, there I go, being pigheaded again.... |
| This is ridiculous...but amusing... | Musika
Nov 24, 2001 11:45 AM | | Yes, Skippy! "To each his own" is my point, and you put it so simply that I'm almost embarrassed...Thanks for making it possible for *everyone* to understand.
Never will I try to pass off my opinions as fact, and if you catch me trying I'd appreciate hearing about it. If I'm not mistaken, I usually use a disclaimer or two of some sort in that area, or I relay my own personal experiences as just that - MY experience. I don't know or care to know enough about science to try and fool any of you techie buffs into believing anything other than what you already think you know so well, you know. (Can you simplify that for me, too?)
Not that you care, but I don't think you're pigheaded just because you'll argue with anyone presenting opinion as fact. To do so would be just plain ignorant and irritating as hell. I'd argue with 'em, too, if I had the verbal fortitude to pull it off. (Good thing this isn't a political forum...) |
| This is ridiculous...but amusing... | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:29 PM | | ""To each his own" is my point, and you put it so simply that I'm almost embarrassed...Thanks for making it possible for *everyone* to understand. "
Then, nothing has value, as a singular reality will have chaos. All have equal merit: alien abductions, holisic healing, homeopathic medicines, psychics, speaking to the dead, the supernatural, big foot, etc.
"MY experience. I don't know or care to know enough about science to try and fool any of you techie buffs into believing anything other than what you already think you know so well, you know. "
Nope, you won't fool some of us but you sure will some uthers less informed. So, any testable claims you make should be challanged and most likely will be. |
| re: Can anyone hear a difference... | Nemep00l
Nov 24, 2001 1:27 PM | | Glad to see someone with their head screwed on right between their shoulders. This wasteland of a board died a long time ago. You will be far better off posting questions and comments at the MODERATED Cable Asylum board on AudioAsylum.com |
| re: Can anyone hear a difference... | Musika
Nov 25, 2001 4:37 AM | | Thanks for the advice and for the support. I'll check it out... |
| re: Can anyone hear a difference... | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:32 PM | | The place is aptly named, really. |
| I couldn't agree more... | Markc
Nov 25, 2001 7:40 AM | | This place has turned into a playground full of bullies who won't share their trucks in the sandbox.... |
| That reminds me. | Dick Hertz
Nov 25, 2001 7:29 PM | | Gimme back my damn truck! |
| re: Can anyone hear a difference... | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:30 PM | | "This wasteland of a board died a long time ago"
Why are you still here?
"You will be far better off posting questions and comments at the MODERATED Cable Asylum board on AudioAsylum.com "
That is your biased opinion, of course. |
| After he dropped his stinking turds... | Dick Hertz
Nov 25, 2001 5:04 PM | | ...he probably split! |
| This is fairly representative of many high-end salons | audioengr
Nov 26, 2001 12:34 PM | | If you do not smell like money, they will not even wait on you. Further, dont expect any trade-in allowance for upgrades. The fact is, most high-end stores make all of their money on home theater installations in the US. |
| Now THIS is a sad but true fact. | Markw*
Nov 26, 2001 2:35 PM | | "The fact is, most high-end stores make all of their money on home theater installations in the US."
Very, very few high end dealers concentrate on good ole two channel anymore. I'm just glad I have one that does. |
| I've found this true where I live. | Dick Hertz
Nov 26, 2001 4:30 PM | | If you're not buying, they just sneer at you. Going into the high-end dealers locally is about as much fun as going to a car dealer. |
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