|   why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | stovie
Nov 22, 2001 8:53 PM | | I am wondering why all the "high tech" audiophiles out there say they it takes about 50 hours of use until you know the true sound of the cable. What happens between when the cables are first used and after 50 hours of use? |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | Dick Hertz
Nov 22, 2001 9:02 PM | | This is an excellent question. The "break-in" of cables is a very mysterious subject. One has to surmise it has something to do with orienting the crystals of copper in such a way as to allow the electrons to flow more quickly as the wire is used. Unfortunately, after long periods of use, the wires are worn through by the abrasive nature of the electrons, consequently the wire must be disgarded, and the process repeated. So if you see a puddle of electrons on the floor, or electrons oozing from your speaker wires or interconnects, then it's time for a change. |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | mtrycrafts
Nov 22, 2001 10:30 PM | | "One has to surmise it has something to do with orienting the crystals of copper in such a way as to allow the electrons to flow more quickly as the wire is used. "
And, that does take time. |
| Serious reply... | Monstrous Mike
Nov 23, 2001 6:52 AM | | Here is my theory. I think it is much the same as someone who moves into an apartment by the subway. At first, the trains are really loud and a pissoff but after a few weeks, you hardly notice them. The trains aren't any quieter, it's just that you have become used to them.
Do you think this is a more plausible explanation than copper crystals re-aligning or however else these audiophiles explain it? |
| Mike Mike Mike | eric the red
Nov 25, 2001 8:57 AM | | The trains actually DO become quieter the longer you live by the subway. The copper crystals re-align themselves on the subway rails over time, smoothing out the screechy highs and creating a quieter, blacker background for the subway noise. I think I read somewhere that a few cities have also been experimenting with tubed subways.... |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | FLZapped
Nov 23, 2001 10:26 AM | | High tech? Have they shown you their degrees in engineering or physics?
It's BS.
-Bruce |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | mtrycrafts
Nov 23, 2001 6:24 PM | | "Have they shown you their degrees in engineering or physics?
It's BS. "
Having such a degree is not a guarantee that they would not make up bs or hype for marketing purposes. Happens all the time, unfortunately. And, we know some folks here, don't we. |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | woodman
Nov 23, 2001 6:39 PM | | Having read so many of these posts about how wires and cables need to be "burned-in" so as to optimize their performance, it just keeps getting sillier and siller.
First, I laughed 'til my sides ached - then, I cried - now, I'm laughing again. This whole "burn-in" issue is just so damned ludicrous, it's beyond comprehension - how gullible and easily hoodwinked are the practitioners of these glorious hobbies of ours. All one needs to do is to BELIEVE - then the sensory experience just jumps right in to validate the belief - simple as that. Next thing you know, there's a whole cult of nutzies running around re-inforcing the myth.
Elsewhere on a different board, someone brought up a new techno-marvel from Korea - designed to seriously enhance the performance of any CD player, by running a special sound through it in order to "re-align the MAGNETS in the signal path". Sheeeeeeesh! What'll they think of next?
woodman |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | JoeW
Nov 24, 2001 12:01 AM | | Gawd only knows what you will think of next - seeing as how you have surrendered your sensory abilities to ABEs. Just out of curiousity, if your car engine starts making a funny sound, do you take it to the people who tell you you are a hopeless idiot?
After all, it could be your ABEs or your head position that caused you to hear this sound. Obviously, since you have no respect for the hearing of others, you should expect none for yourself.
Of course it could be that you are flat out wrong, and using your approach to listening could result in a $2000 engine replacement. Thank gawd you took the hard stance against $80 cables. |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | FLZapped
Nov 24, 2001 4:19 AM | | Joe,
Considering that there are several hundred moving parts in an engine, plus the belt driven accessories, and cables have zero moving parts, this really isn't a very good analogy. "Funny sounds" in an engine could mean parts hitting each other that weren't designed to do so and no one will call you a idiot for it. And yes, some of these noises can go away, like a sticking hydraulic lifter. (Or maybe the neighbors cat in the fan belts)
-Bruce |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | JoeW
Nov 25, 2001 5:54 PM | | Bruce,
Thats a dodge, and you know it.
The fact is that our ears are an important sense, and taken seriously, except when it comes to cables. No one from the naysayer camp can explain why an important sense is suddenly meaningless here.
Convenience? |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | FLZapped
Nov 26, 2001 8:21 AM | | No Joe, it was just a poor analogy.
Yes, our ears are an important sense, but not when our brain acts as a filter(which may not be an adequate term) when trying to make a value judgement on something you youself admit is subtle. A sudden knocking in an engine is not subtle.
I've done experiments myself. I've tried bypassing the EQ in my system and at first, YUCK! Ten minutes later and I don't care any longer.
Hearing isn't meaningless, just judging accurately what we hear is inaccurate. There are people who have spent their entire life decoding the psychology of hearing. We don't have all the answers, but we have known for decades that our judgement is distorted by our preception, which is a psychological factor.
-Bruce |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | JoeW
Nov 27, 2001 12:26 AM | | You start to make sense, then veer off into the woods.
Our ability to hear is an abolsute sense. There are factors that can delude our abities to a point. A permanant point? A point where we're simply too stupid or helpless? Permanantly? This would be a mighty claim.
Is awareness enough? Or, are we outsmarted at every turn? I dont owe you an answer here. (Nor would yours mean anything, unless of course, you'd attempt to quantify the psychological factors that alarm you)
I dont listen for you - please dont listen for me |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | FLZapped
Nov 27, 2001 6:05 AM | | [You start to make sense, then veer off into the woods.
Our ability to hear is an abolsute sense. There are factors that can delude our abities to a point. A permanant point? A point where we're simply too stupid or helpless? Permanantly? This would be a mighty claim. ]
I veered off? First you start out by calling hearing absolute, then toss variables into it. Oh well. :~)
I doubt our ability point is permanent. It probably grows weaker as we grow older and our hearing declines with age.
As for audibility, if something is below that threshold, yes, we would be helpless. Otherwise, I can't say for sure, but it certainly wouldn't be reliable, would it? How would we know when and when not our perception is altered by other factors, seen or otherwise. Has nothing to do with being stupid.
Not being either a clinical psychologist, nor an psycho acoustic researcher, I cannot answer what influences are what at any given time. However, I do notice that whenever clinical hearing studies are conducted, every effort to strip away any variable that might jade the results gets stripped away wherever possible.
I am not trying to listen for you. I will however ask if you are sure about what you heard and to think about what other factors might have crept into your assesment. Just as you always question my technical points. Should I now be asking you not to?
-Bruce |
| You tell 'em, Bruce | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:42 PM | | Why do you still try to use the car analogy to audio? So tired and poor, you should know better, or not really. Maybe that is the problem. |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | ckturtle
Nov 23, 2001 10:08 PM | | Stovie,
I can't tell you why cables will go through sonic changes with time, but they do. Every interconnect that I've plugged into my system has gone through some noticable changes from when they were first installed. Haven't you noticed that your system too will sound smoother and better after been warmed up for a while.
Regards,
CK |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | FLZapped
Nov 24, 2001 4:14 AM | | If they are audible changes, they should be measureable, right? So why hasn't anybody been able to do this?
Are you sure that you're not the one doing the adjusting?
-Bruce |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | ckturtle
Nov 24, 2001 6:36 PM | | Nope!
We didn't need someone to measure the ambient lights when day became night, back then, it was just plain noticable and obvious to us all. All the intellectual arguments and endless debates could not change the fact. I for one stand by my observations. |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | FLZapped
Nov 24, 2001 9:03 PM | | Well, that's fine, but I'm still awaiting verifiable evidence, devoid of the myriad of variables that invade such a report.
-Bruce |
| Ambient light. | FLZapped
Nov 24, 2001 9:07 PM | | "We didn't need someone to measure the ambient lights when day became night, back then, "
But can you tell me EXACTLY what the ambient light consisted of? What the spectral balance was, what it's intensity was, where it was coming from, did it ever vary and how much?
Maybe you didn't notice so much about the ambient light.
I could make a counter observation that would corellate to your point by saying I noticed the diffence in the sound when I shut my amp off, which is the gross observation you made regarding day and night.
-Bruce |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 2:46 PM | | "I for one stand by my observations."
That is permitted. But then, facts are not really important to you, it seems. A suppose psychics can tell, Silvia Brown is able to do what she claims. David Copperfield is real magic, right. After all, I see what I see. |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | ckturtle
Nov 25, 2001 9:20 PM | | The audio changes are seriously obvious and factual. I'm sorry it totally escapes some, and preferring to belittle others that do. Maybe someday, some will figure out that the world is round too. In the mean time all the psuedo intellicual arguments will not change the facts. I know this is an endless debate on this site, but someday...you may see the light, or lets say, hear the changes. Q-tips are on sale in the meantime though. |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | mtrycrafts
Nov 25, 2001 10:09 PM | | "The audio changes are seriously obvious and factual. "
You measured it? Then it is. Are you claiming to hear it? Then, you have an uphill battle. You have no evidence, nor anyone else.
"I know this is an endless debate on this site, but someday...you may see the light, or lets say, hear the changes. "
Yes, at some places, fantasy is accepted as reality, not debated or allowed. But, if you have any evidence, not tales of fantasy, please inform us all. |
| Here we go again!!! | ckturtle
Nov 26, 2001 1:32 PM | | I don't know if there is an equipment available that you speak of, that can measure what you demand, as being the only source of valid measurement. You're looking only to one source for an answer, which severly limits your observational skills and abilities. You shouldn't completely elliminate audible changes when listening to and comparing of audio systems. If you do, then you're in the wrong business. Again, my friend Mtry, Q-tips are on sale if you want to work on the hearing side of your skills. Peace!
Regards,
ck |
| No, Here you go again!!! | mtrycrafts
Nov 27, 2001 12:48 AM | | Why bother to listen if there is nothing that can be measured? If you want to, be my guest. Be sure to do a credible DBT. |
| Turn the camera off sometimes during sex... | ckturtle
Nov 27, 2001 10:06 AM | | Mtry,
When you go to a symphony or to a concert, do you say the music, the nuances, the sounds have no reality or relevance, because one did not have a measuring device in which to say what was just performed. You have to be one of those that would say if the video camera didn't captured your recent vacation on tape, then the vacation must not have happened at all. because it was unverifiable! Go ahead, open up, look around, listen, take in the sights, take in the sounds. Take the vision out from the microscopic view finder and expand the perceptional senses.
But the way, I think Warren Warren & Musica are doing a pretty fine job kicking you and your anti-cabling clones butts in the above posts. They're gaining the lead on this issue, so quick! round up the posse and bring out the heavy artillary.
Cheers,
ck |
| re: why do speaker cables get better as they are used? | FLZapped
Nov 26, 2001 8:24 AM | | [The audio changes are seriously obvious and factual.]
If so, then you should have measurement data to back that up, right?
Or are they just factual as your personal perception allows?
-Bruce |
| You mean, just like the nature of ambient light?(nt) | FLZapped
Nov 26, 2001 9:36 AM | | |
| First, A Contrary View | skippy
Nov 24, 2001 7:29 AM | | After many exhaustive hours of listening tests, I have determined that when a cable is burned-in, it is actually ruined. No cable should be used for more than a few hours, as the stresses on the insulation and the agitation of the copper molecules cause permanent changes to the structure of the cable - these changes are invariably for the worse, and fresh unused cables can be proven by listening tests to be superior in all respects.
The characteristics of the insulation change very subtly as the cable is stressed by signal voltages, and this has an as yet unexplained effect on the stereo imaging, and in particular causes veiling of the high frequencies and a loss of presence in the upper midrange. In extreme cases, the authority of the bass also suffers, with the lower registers lacking speed and power.
All the above defects are rectified by substitution of a new set of cables - the brilliance is restored and the finer details are brought back into startling realism. Bass speed is improved tenfold by a brand new unused mains cable, and new interconnects have a profound effect on the upper frequencies where detail is paramount. |
| Now, Back to Reality | skippy
Nov 24, 2001 7:31 AM | | I could say all these things (I just did :-) and I would be lying through my teeth. I could easily expound on this theory, lodge a few posts at some of the audiophile "watering holes", and offer a range of affordable leads in 10-packs (enough to last for a month or more of normal listening) so that fresh leads can be used when the others start to sound "tired". If I did my homework and used all the right words, how many sets of leads do you think I would sell? I already know the answer - "A lot". I am appalled at the rubbish that is fed to the audio fraternity by charlatans and frauds.
Sure, I could do it too (I would certainly make a lot more money than I do from the stance I take at the moment), but I would not enjoy it in the least. The reason I would not enjoy it is simply that it would be dishonest and fraudulent - no-one would actually be able to prove me wrong (as is the current situation), but I would be unable to back up my claims with facts that were in any way meaningful. I would simply throw in a few mathematical terms, a bit of random molecular theory, or perhaps make dire mutterings about resonances and how they become more significant as the cable ages. From reading the postulations of the opposing viewpoint I know that a significant number of people would believe me, and why not? A significant number of people already believe that burn-in makes a good difference, so why would anyone who was disillusioned by a set of recalcitrant cables be unwilling to accept that my idea was either wrong or any more ridiculous than the others "facts" that are out there?
My credibility would suffer badly from such an exercise, and I would do a great deal of harm to the hobby that I (and so many others) enjoy. It is most regrettable (IMHO) that some of the others don't have the same attitude, and are just out to make a quick buck.
We are not talking about facts when the discussion turns to cable burn-in, we are simply digressing into the realms of magic - anything that cannot be explained by the "facts" as they are currently known to exist is magic. The concept of a vast machine that can fly through the air is pure magic to a primitive people who have never seen such a thing before. The concept that cables sound better after burn-in (or is that when brand new?) is magic to those who have little knowledge of electrical principles, but love music.
When there is a gaggle of reviewers and manufacturers out there telling them that "something" is so, why would they disbelieve these self proclaimed experts? Who else is there to turn to for help? When the uninitated think they can't hear a difference, what are they to do? To admit that they hear no difference is liable to have them "cast out" by their peers for the heinous crime of being cloth-eared. A sorry state of affairs indeed, and one that ensures that the unscrupulous will not only survive but prosper.
This is a reprint of an editorial by Rod Elliot. The whole article is here: http://sound.westhost.com/madashell.htm#burnin |
| I'll tell you exactly what happens..... | Eyespy
Nov 25, 2001 12:06 AM | | "What happens between when the cables are first used and after 50 hours of use?"
The percentage of sold merchandise that is returned for refund declines. |
| Abso-friggin'-lutely ... NOTHING! nt | woodman
Nov 25, 2001 10:23 AM | | nt |
| My phd physicist friend says | audioengr
Nov 26, 2001 12:37 PM | | that the dielectrics experience physical stress when signal currents (and the resulting fields) are applied. This may cause the molecules to relax, changing the dielectric absorption. This could certainly be audible. |
| My phd physicist friend says | Eyespy
Nov 26, 2001 4:37 PM | | "This may cause the molecules to relax, changing the dielectric absorption. This could certainly be audible."
Well, if it's audible, it could be credibly demonstrated. |
| My phd physicist friend says | mtrycrafts
Nov 27, 2001 12:45 AM | | "it could be credibly demonstrated.
"
Certainly measured at least:-) |
| Is this hearsay? | Robot Czar
Nov 26, 2001 9:21 PM | | "...the dielectrics experience physical stress when signal currents (and the resulting fields) are applied. This may cause the
molecules to relax, changing the dielectric absorption. This could certainly be audible."
So did your friend say "This could certainly be audible" or is that you? Whoever said it, it was wise to say "could" instead of "should". I assume it could also be inaudible.
Also, I'd like to talk to your fried about how molecules relax. Do they get tense again if the currents and fields are removed? |
| My phd physicist friend says | mtrycrafts
Nov 27, 2001 12:44 AM | | "This may cause the molecules to relax, "
May? He doesn't know?
"This could certainly be audible."
Sheer speculation. Where is the evidence? Where is the measured data?
Bob Pease measured them at the 4/6th decimal place. Give me a break.
Actually, where is the evidence that you can hear audible differneces betweent he different insulation materials? |
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