| AudioREVIEW's Forum Archives - Cables & Interconnects |
|
|   Not meant to agitate, just to clarify-Metals and Metallurgy | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 8:47 PM | | A few days ago I posted a remark that Gold was the best conductor. I was immediately attacked on all sides, with quotes and numbers coming in like bombs on the Taliban. What I should have said, to be more precise, is that Gold is the best (non-radioactive) conductor at room temperatures AT THE ELEMENTAL (read: atomic/molecular) LEVEL. Again, this goes back to basic atomic theory, metals, and valence. The reason that gold wire performs poorly compared to copper or silver in a cable is BECAUSE is such a good conductor. What? Am I crazy? That makes no sense!!! Or does it? When an AC voltage is applied to the gold, especially in a dense mass, so many electrons jump orbit that they collide into each other, rather than moving in an orderly fashion from one molecule to the next. This is an oversimplification, but you get the picture. So, in theory, Gold IS the best conductor, but when it is teamed up with a bunch of other gold molecules, total confusion ensues. This is also another important factor (aside from oxidation) in why gold plated jacks and gold plated interconnects are frequently used in electronic equipment. As the plating is relatively thin, the electrons move freely and easily between the 2 surfaces. Like I said, not meant to agitate, just to clarify. |
| BTW-For John McHugh | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 8:54 PM | | John, as I stated in my previous post, and again in this one, this is a simplified version. If you would care to go into detail, please feel free to do so. I only mention this because I have been criticized in the past for speaking above my audience and being condescending (yes, I admit, I am guilty). So, please feel free to elaborate on the subject if you must. Just try to do it with a modicum of respect, keep it informative, and on subject. Thanks! |
| Reason I responded the way I did | John McHugh
Nov 30, 2001 1:03 PM | | I can read a thousand posts that I disagree or find fault with and not feel the compulsion to pick a fight or be insulting, or even respond. But, the post a couple pages back that I jumped on was one that was scientifically inaccurate, posted by one who claimed to be an EE and a Ph.D. student, and oblivious to or dismissive of the backgrounds of those who post here and don't believe there's any substance to premium audio wire science. That's a bit much to be ignored, as one of the handful or more engineers, scientists, or otherwise technically proficient folks who frequent this board (no, I can't speak for others).
You can get away with being condescending if you know your subject and choose your words carefully. Although it's seldom a trivial exercise, the simplification of complex topics for mass consumption isn't an excuse for getting things backwards or mixed up. |
| Confused over your simplification Gold is a great conductor! | Robert Hamel
Nov 29, 2001 9:36 PM | | Ok I work in the aerospace industry. Where I work we make custom hybrids. Hybrids are IC'S, resistors,inductors and capacitors in chip form mounted to a substrate and sealed in a hermetic package. If you take a typical diode such as a 1N4148 the active device inside the leaded body is a 30X30 10 mil thick silicon chip. The whole idea is to pack as much in the hybrid to save weight and space which is why they are used in space and military applications. I apoligize for the long winded explanation but if you have never heard of them you won't be able to follow me on this. The substrate is usually alumina or berillium oxide for power devices. The conductors are silk screened and fired onto the substates and in most cases Gold is the conductor of choice. When the devices are wired to the subtrate and external package pins we use Gold wire and ribbons. They are .001-.005 mils in diameter and the ribbons are all sizes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with gold as a conductor. These devices go through hunderds of hours of burn in and life test and are designed with a 10 year mission life in orbit. |
| Confused over your simplification Gold is a great conductor! | Warren Warren
Nov 30, 2001 4:32 AM | | Actually, this is PRECISELY my point! Gold, in mils or microns is without a doubt the best conductor, but as you move into larger diameters and mass, the free electrons are present in such great quantities that they collide and many of the atoms remain ionized rather than conducting efficiently. |
| Confused over your simplification Gold is a great conductor! | mtrycrafts
Nov 30, 2001 9:30 PM | | I believe you confuse the need for gold wire in space and a zero room for failure and other considerations, for being a better conductor of electricity. It is a better metal to use in space, most likely is the case, not that it is electrically better. |
| HURRAH!! Proper use of the term "burn-in"...(nt) | Resident Loser
Nov 30, 2001 5:55 AM | | |
| re: Not meant to agitate, just to clarify-Metals and Metallurgy | mtrycrafts
Nov 29, 2001 10:19 PM | | "The reason that gold wire performs poorly compared to copper or silver in a cable is BECAUSE is such a good conductor. What? Am I crazy? "
You said it, not me.
Back to your drawing board. That simple.
Consult the authoritative tables on conduction. Well establsihed in facts, not speculations.
". So, in theory, "
That is only your theory, speculations.
", just to clarify. "
???? Hardly. |
| Sorry for the flame, but... Hey Mtry! | Warren Warren
Nov 30, 2001 4:36 AM | | Mtry- were you born an ***hole, or did it take years of practice? In either case, you do it so well! |
| and this is relevant to what? (Nt) | Warren Warren
Nov 30, 2001 4:53 AM | | |
| re: Not meant to agitate, just to clarify-Metals and Metallurgy | John McHugh
Nov 30, 2001 1:16 PM | | There is no such thing as conductivity at the elemental (or atomic/molecular) level. Conductivity is a bulk property, and gold is a poorer conductor than copper, whether the applied potential is AC, DC, or whatever.
<<So, in theory, Gold IS the best conductor, but when it is teamed up with a bunch of other gold molecules, total confusion ensues.>>
What is this supposed to mean? Are you suggesting the free 6s-orbital electron would move more freely if a gold atom were surrounded by a bunch of small helium atoms? Electrons collide in any metal.
Why not just say "copper is a better conductor than gold because, while both elements possess a single valence electron per atom, the copper lattice exhibits a larger mean free path between electronic collisions?"
If your basic statement is wrong, there isn't any way to explain it with theory. |
| re: Not meant to agitate, just to clarify-Metals and Metallurgy | Warren Warren
Dec 1, 2001 10:33 AM | | Please define for the benefit of all exactly what is a copper latice. I have included here a basic definition of valence.
Definition: Typically, the number of electrons needed to fill the outermost shell of an atom. Because exceptions exist, the more general definition of valence is the number of electrons with which a given atom generally bonds or number of bonds an atom forms. (Think iron, which may have a valence of 2 or a valence of 3.)
BTW, I never mentioned anything about helium, did I? Why helium? And, in a (now not-so theoretical) conductor strand of 1 molecule thickness, gold would be a superior conductor. Please read the attached article and share your opinions with me. I don't believe my basic statement was wrong, and that theory does explain it, but we are all (hopefully) hear to learn, not just to listen to ourselves talk (well, most of us, anyway). I would greatly appreciate your input (albeit in a little more freindly manner) as you seem to be quite knowledgable in the field, and I'm certain I could learn a lot from you.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1997/10/971010063327.htm |
| re: Not meant to agitate, just to clarify-Metals and Metallurgy | Grind DPegs
Dec 1, 2001 7:10 AM | | I'm a newbee in this forum, but IMHO I would use gold plated connectors BECAUSE they won't CORRODE over time like copper and silver.
Besides, I don't know of anyone who sells 12ga gold wire, let alone who would buy it.
Look at some of those connectors after years of service, and you'll see corrosion, and you'll hear the difference later if not sooner if you don't clean/replace the stuff. With gold plating, that won't happen for the amount of years that I'll be concerned about.
Mike |
| re: Not meant to agitate, just to clarify-Metals and Metallurgy | Eyespy
Dec 1, 2001 8:46 AM | | What do you ride? |
| |
|
|
