|   Why pay more for cables? | Warren Warren
Nov 28, 2001 3:48 PM | | Ok, I promised the moderator I would be serious, and I will refrain from making personal attacks. I would like to bring up a serious subject that has yet to be addressed- NON-AUDIBLE REASONS to spend more money on cables. Please, let's NOT discuss AUDIBLE reasons, rather, what may (or may not) be practical in certain situations. I am posting this because someone thought it was odd that I mentioned fire-retardance as being a quality of a cable. Please read this entire post before begining your attacks!
Non-audible reasons for buying a more expensive cable/interconnect:
1) Gold plated terminations. I think we all agree that Gold resists oxidation better than the other noble metals.
2) Heavier gage/gauge/guage/gague, diameter, circumference, whatever, etc. TO A POINT! We all know that there is no need for welding cables, but 22ga zip cord is generally unacceptable.
3) Physical appearance- NOT for showing off, but for example buying white speaker cables to blend more easily with a white wall, or color coded interconnects to quickly separate Right from Left, Analog from Digital, Etc.
4) Quality of connector assembly- a cold solder joint can give you intermittent signal loss, or can open up entirely. A silver content solder will give you a better electrical connection than a 60/40 lead/nickle solder. A tight (but not too tight) fit is also desirable.
5) Flat (or Flattened) cables, designed to run under carpets and/or along a baseboard.
6) Plenum or Fire Retardant Cables- No big deal if they run across your floor, but very important for in-wall or in-duct placement. In fact, some building codes may require it.
PLEASE- refrain from turning this into an AUDIBILITY discussion. if there are other NON-AUDIBLE reasons that anyone can think of, please post them. I am trying to be nice, and hope everyone else out there will be, too. |
| re: Why pay more for cables? | Eyespy
Nov 28, 2001 6:00 PM | | This is all true, but many other well defined and poorly defined preferences can also come into play. Additionally, with the exception of your inclusion of plenum wire, which is an interesting point, all the above reasons you list have been discussed here many times. Never hurts to point them out again, however, as you have done. A clear distinction must be made for testable claims of an audible difference and for statements of a personal preference, such as those you have outlined, as well as a potentially enormous numbers of other possible preferences not listed. Thank you. |
| Thank you for not attacking me (nt) | Warren Warren
Nov 28, 2001 6:47 PM | | |
| No need to thank me | Eyespy
Nov 28, 2001 8:57 PM | | I'm not in the habit of attacking you, or anyone else for that matter. You're welcome. |
| Thank you for not attacking me (nt) | Eyespy
Nov 29, 2001 7:50 AM | | Warren, just out of curiosity, have you ever perused The Audio Myths webpage I have put together? |
| Thank you for not attacking me (nt) | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 8:09 AM | | No, but I would like to. Please post the link, or email it to me if you wish. |
| Warren | Mwalsdor@cscc.edu
Nov 29, 2001 10:55 AM | | FYI/FWIW -
I'm not trying to correct you, just offering my opinion. I see you getting into exchanges with some of our more outspoken regulars or just the "Flavor of the Month Sockpuppets". If you enjoy this fine, if not you're spinning your wheels while only providing the fodder to fuel their arguments. As you are familiar with the overt trolls, I'm afraid some of the more covert "Resident's of Knowlege" goal is simple: Pontificate their allegiance, perhaps adopting a conveniant POV to confront opposing POVs while providing this "knowledge" to the unwitted under the guise of educating the masses. One must be open to the possibilities for any form of enlightenment to take place.
I believe ALL information posted by unfamiliar sources on public bulletin boards should be lightly regarded and not accepted as fact but mere opinion. From this POV there is not so much correction needed or even called for, unless one is a professional and you in kind feel you are in a position / mood to correct us. When people take the stance that their POV or opinion is singular or unequaled then we butt heads with other like-minded "experts". When we understand that everyone has an opinion, that we are all at various points of development, and by sharing our mutual passion we can turn combatants into cohorts. It seems those that adopt or cultivate like philosophies or thought process' gravitate toward one another. When confronted with most any form of ignorance, arrogance or uglyness the best retort is often silence. The choice is yours...
MikE |
| Thank you for not attacking me (nt) | Eyespy
Nov 29, 2001 4:57 PM | | Here's the link to it:
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioandhometheaterhomepage/id3.html
From there, you can navigate to other pages, including my HT page, and more related to the Myths page, the page for psychacoustic reference materials and page listing additional audio references.
For psychoacoustic references, see:
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioandhometheaterhomepage/id4.html
For additional audio references, see:
http://2eyespy.tripod.com/myaudioandhometheaterhomepage/id5.html |
| An interesting one | DMK
Nov 28, 2001 6:57 PM | | First of all, no one can argue someone's preference. But as one audio buff told me, he couldn't necessarily tell one wire from another sonically but he felt that he should buy according to the value of his system, therefore no zip cord with his $15K setup. He didn't follow the 10-15% rule but he did spend $80 on speaker wire and about $120 on three sets of interconnects. He felt that cheap zip cord was as he put it, an "embarrassment" to the rest of his system.
Personally, I love the look of those XLO Signature 5.1 8 awg fat ones! Not enough to buy 'em, though. I think they're around $100 a stereo foot! |
| An interesting one | mtrycrafts
Nov 28, 2001 10:46 PM | | "He felt that cheap zip cord was as he put it, an "embarrassment" to the rest of his system. "
That is a very valid reson. :-) |
| An interesting one | DMK
Nov 29, 2001 5:07 AM | | Well, I'm not sure of the validity overall but I can't fault a preference. I love those manual pull out drawers on Naim CD players! If they cost $1K instead of $2K+, I might buy one. Silly to spend that much money on the manner of drawer mechanism, I might :) |
| An interesting one | Eyespy
Nov 29, 2001 7:39 AM | | Not so silly if it is simply a preference to do so, one likes the mechanical engineering design, etc. It becomes silly when one asserts a claim for an audible difference for playback of a CD imparted by the mechanism as compared to a more conventional design. |
| Well... | DMK
Nov 29, 2001 11:14 AM | | That manual drawer does make the sound less mechanical :) |
| Well... | Eyespy
Nov 29, 2001 5:00 PM | | I was intending excuse or allow for the likelihood of sound differences in the actual mechanisms by referring specifically to the sound of the CD playback :-) |
| Nice List | Robert Hamel
Nov 28, 2001 7:33 PM | | Well I had some bad experiences with an intermitent OEM supplied cable and ever since that experience I buy aftermarket cables. They seem to have better overall quality in their construction and I am much more comfortable with them in my system. They look nicer to. A pretty snake pit behind the cabinet. |
| re: Why pay more for cables? | mtrycrafts
Nov 28, 2001 10:43 PM | | "1) Gold plated terminations. I think we all agree that Gold resists oxidation better than the other noble metals."
Don't need expensive cables to get this. So, this is out the window.
"2) Heavier gage/gauge/guage/gague, diameter, circumference, whatever, etc. TO A POINT! We all know that there is no need for welding cables, but 22ga zip cord is generally unacceptable. "
Who is recommending 22 ga?
12ga is available for $.30/ft, or less.
So, your reason #2 is also out the window. Not doing too well, are you. first two are out the window.
"3) Physical appearance- NOT for showing off, but for example buying white speaker cables to blend more easily with a white wall, or color coded interconnects to quickly separate Right from Left, Analog from Digital, Etc. "
Yes, white cables can be a very good reason on a limited basis. Funny, I cannot remember a post requesting a cable for that reason. Must not be a real need but there can be one or two.
But, again, it still doesn't need to be expensive, does it?
Interconnects usually have color coded cable ends so that is also out the window.
You can also lable the cables for less, perhaps. Then, you don't have to remember any codes:)
"4) Quality of connector assembly- a cold solder joint can give you intermittent signal loss, or can open up entirely. A silver content solder will give you a better electrical connection than a 60/40 lead/nickle solder. A tight (but not too tight) fit is also desirable."
And you don;t have to pay too much for this either. Silver solder is not such a big deal. Just a fancy solder.
Expensive cables do not guarantee free from cold solder joints.
"5) Flat (or Flattened) cables, designed to run under carpets and/or along a baseboard"
Finally, you hit one that has been asked a number of times and recommended as such.
"6) Plenum or Fire Retardant Cables- No big deal if they run across your floor, but very important for in-wall or in-duct placement. In fact, some building codes may require it. "
No, it is not important for in wall, only in a plenum. Not all locality codes require UL listed speaker cables. Why would anyone run cables through a plenum in a residential wiring? No reason.
This is a very iffy reason.
While these can be valid reasons, the only one I can remember is the flat cable being asked for. All other cable debate is about a sonic benefit,that was asked about, probably 99. % |
| I got 2 for you | JoeW
Nov 28, 2001 11:05 PM | | I needed longer IC's to reach my amps.
RFI rejection flirts with your non-audiblity requirements, but if you live near a broadcast tower, it is a major factor - especially when you need longer ICs. |
| RFI | FLZapped
Nov 29, 2001 5:32 AM | | [I needed longer IC's to reach my amps.
RFI rejection flirts with your non-audiblity requirements, but if you live near a broadcast tower, it is a major factor - especially when you need longer ICs. ]
Joe,
How long? Using a decent RG-6 type cable would yield excellent performance even at 25 feet in length.
Are you near the broadcast tower? Luckily not too many are, however, in those cases, I would look for cables with a braid over foil shield.
Still, part of the problem rests with the equipment design too. If the stuff is inherently susceptible to RFI, then the manufacturer might have to be contacted to get the results needed.
Th FCC used to produce a booklet on RFI. If they still do, it's worthwhile to have a copy handy. The ARRL also has information on taming RFI. (http://www.arrl.org/)
-Bruce |
| RFI | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 5:41 AM | | VERY GOOD POST! Thank you for your polite, informative, and on-subject response! I'm glad we are all (with a few exceptions) playing nice now! P.S. I apologize for my earlier rude comments directed at you. I should not have let some other people rile me up like they did, and I got carried away. Sorry. |
| RFI | FLZapped
Nov 29, 2001 6:26 AM | | Likewise....Thanks. -Bruce |
| RFI | JoeW
Nov 29, 2001 9:03 AM | | >Are you near the broadcast tower? Luckily not too many are, however, in those cases, I would look for cables with a braid over foil shield.
There are 2, sitting atop the hill across the valley from me. Elsewhere in the valley is a sprawling railroad yard. I imagine there is heavy broadcast activity there as well. As for audio cable in such an environment, I'll stick with shielded twisted pr type cables and keep the radio pollution out of the signal path as much as possible.
>Still, part of the problem rests with the equipment design too. If the stuff is inherently susceptible to RFI, then the manufacturer might have to be contacted to get the results needed.
Lets see. A 900mhz cordless phone solved that problem. With cableTV, I can watch TV. If I want to listen to the radio, I have go for a drive, or use an internet feed. For audio gear in general, tubed equipment seems more impervious to the audible artifacts. |
| RFI | FLZapped
Nov 29, 2001 9:13 AM | | [There are 2, sitting atop the hill across the valley from me. Elsewhere in the valley is a sprawling railroad yard. I imagine there is heavy broadcast activity there as well. As for audio cable in such an environment, I'll stick with shielded twisted pr type cables and keep the radio pollution out of the signal path as much as possible]
There is probably a lot of commercial two-way stuff there too. I imagine the towers bristle like porcupines with antennas. So you have equipment with balanced interconnections I take it?? That does help some.
[For audio gear in general, tubed equipment seems more impervious to the audible artifacts. ]
You're probably right. I haven't given it much thought since I was more than happy to give up using thermionic MOSFETs when solid-state electronics began to develop. However, properly designed solid-state circuits can be very robust against rf.
-Bruce |
| Hey Mtry... | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 4:40 AM | | I promised the moderator I would behave, but you are really pushing it. Once again, you are reading things that are not there (see the "careful reading..." post. Did I mention ANYWHERE in the post that you must spend a lot of money for these features? Did you see the word "expensive" anywhere? No, just that they cost more. For example, a cable with gold plated connectors could cost $3 or $4 more than one with plain nickle or aluminum connectors. Also, 30 cents a foot for a 12ga cable is much more than 7 cents a foot for zip cord. Yes, it is also true that silver solder is not much more than a normal solder, but it is more. Also, while there may be no guarantee (although many cable companies DO guarantee their work) that there will be no cold solder joints, the odds are significantly reduced. At least you did not argue with me on the flattened cables (Amazing!). And finally, why plenum? Because in many homes where people would like to upgrade to multi-room capability, an easy and inexpensive way to run wires is through heating/AC ductwork. Now, I am playing nice. If you would like to continue your attacks, that is your perogative, but I think you are only going to make yourself look foolish. |
| Hey Mtry... | mtrycrafts
Nov 29, 2001 11:35 PM | | Let me see now. You stated:
"Non-audible reasons for buying a more expensive cable/interconnect:"
More expensive is expensive since you didn't define it further and anything more that what is already satisfactory, is expensive indeed.
"Did I mention ANYWHERE in the post that you must spend a lot of money for these features? "
You stated more expensive. I gave you reasons why your reasons are out the window, nothing more. You can certainly disagree with my reasons, but I gave you reasons why they are out.
"Did you see the word "expensive" anywhere? "
See above for your quote.
"For example, a cable with gold plated connectors could cost $3 or $4 more than one with plain nickle or aluminum connectors. "
Or, they could cost the same with a different name on it and not pay for the name.
"Also, 30 cents a foot for a 12ga cable is much more than 7 cents a foot for zip cord. "
And what gauge is that zip cord? Perhaps you are confused again. And, assume that all zip cords are the same gauge wire. They are not, and don't assume it to be, just because Jon Risch so blatantly throws 'zipcord' around. And no, it is not lamp cord either, but a generic term for cords that can be pulled apart.
But, if you can show me that 7 cents a foot 12 ga zipcord, that is what I will recommend from here on out.
"although many cable companies DO guarantee their work) "
That is still not a guaranty that you will not have a cold joint. Cars many things, come with a guarantee too.
"At least you did not argue with me on the flattened cables (Amazing"
Why would I? That has real uses.
" an easy and inexpensive way to run wires is through heating/AC ductwork."
Now you are speculating. That is a rare event in a residential application. Easyer workaround than to get into the ductwork.
"If you would like to continue your attacks, "
Attacks? Oh, you don't like faulty thinking pointed out, or other thinking? Hardly an attack.
"but I think you are only going to make yourself look foolish."
Let me worry about that, thanks. |
| For Some, A Few Reasons | Mwalsdor@cscc.edu
Nov 29, 2001 4:16 AM | | Appearance, status appeal, trust or belief. Appearance: Being a visual artist looks matter. We typically spend more time gazing at our systems than listening to (or some perfer through) them. Personally, I enjoy surrounding myself in an attractive environment. Status Appeal: Whether personal friends, or on-line buddies we generally enjoy the acceptance and approval of our peer group(s). Trust/Belief: If for whatever reason, perhaps those already mentioned, we believe the components we choose are better, than that will enrich our experience to an undetermined (individualy-weighted) degree.
Having said that, while I'll admit to not being immune those the factors mentioned, it seems I'm less influenced by them. Especially status appeal or at best/worst "conventional wisdom". Thought it seems I'm LESS affected by that than most given my personality, as I'm usually attracted by the path NOT taken. You mentioned gauge of wire, and how that alone may influence our purchasing decisions. At some point it did, but now I'm more interested in judging my components/systems by the AURAL effect rendered (if only in my mind) than looking to pigeon-hole my tastes into some pre-concieved or established line of thought or preference.
I think as one spends more time/dollar with those things we become passionate, we (if honest) learn to seperate what works from what does little (again based on a multitude of unique factors) and if musical satifaction is important (and not statement effects) than we are less concerned with non-aural considerations. YMMV.
MikE |
| why buy a carton of milk when you can buy a whole cow? | itellitlikeitis
Nov 29, 2001 5:14 AM | | Sorry Warren Warren. This is a pile of bunk. There is no reason here to buy expensive cables. Mtrycrafts is right again.
1. Although there is no such thing as "noble metal" (there are only noble gases, there are "precious" metals-your chemestry lesson for today) there are other types of terminations that show no signs of oxidation over many years of normal use and make reliable elctrical connections. Yes, gold won't oxidize--ever. In the real world, cheaper alternatives are just as good.
2. No one ever said you should connect speakers to an amplifier with anything less than 16 gage. If you like 12 or 10, it's commonly available cheaply.
3. Manufacturers of expensive cables never make them to blend in with the decor of a room. If you don't like the color of your cables, you can always paint them the same color as the walls. The only wire that's commonly available in a variety of colors is the common less expensive types--such as thhn or zip cord. By the way, if you unzip zip cord and examine it carefully, you'll usually find that the insulation on one lead is perfectly round while the other is ridged. So they are coded.
4. Most connectors including the cheap ones are entirely satisfactory. Whether the solder is silver solder or rosin core lead tin, the impedence of the solder joint is insignificant. Expensive cables don't necessarily guarantee good reliable connections. Remember Mwlsdor's problem he wrote about a few months ago regarding the pins on his expensive speaker wire breaking off because they were so flimsy. (I'm not surprised to hear him admit that he spends more time looking at his stereo system than listnening to it--whatever turns you on.)
5. I'd be real careful about flat cable under carpeting. It's relatively easy to get round cable between the nails in a tackless strip. With flat wire, it's practically impossible.
6. I am very familiar with the chapter of NEC for plenum rated cable. I have never seen a residential space that had a return air plenum which qualified under provisions of the code making rated cable manditory. This simply does not apply. By the way, the attic or crawl space in your house even if you have central air conditioning doesn't count either. |
| why buy a carton of milk when you can buy a whole cow? | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 5:35 AM | | read my response to Mtry, and I will add the following information- Many manufacturer's do indeed make color coded cable, Canare and Belden come to mind. Also, for a cable to be paintable, you have to insure that the paint will not react with the outer jacket of the cable. Also, the NEC (National Electrical Code), is just that, a national MINIMUM standard. Many localities have more stringent requirements, including Washington, DC. So, sorry to burst your bubble, but you keep on trying. You and Mtry must surely be suffering from some serious self-esteem issues if the only way you can contribute is in a manner trying to belittle others. |
| This cow won't hunt | itellitlikeitis
Nov 29, 2001 6:00 AM | | I am not belittling you, I'm just correcting your mistakes.
In most jurisdictions where I have worked--California, New York, New Jersey, Maryland, Pennsylvania (not Washington DC), Plenum rated cable is only necessary for a return air air conditioning plenums usually above a hung ceiling with a central air handling fan that draws return air from that space (not though individual return air ducts as in home central air systems.) The code changed after 1979 when the exectutives of Arrow Electronics were killed in a fire at Stoffer's Inn in Weschester as the result of acrid smoke from burning PVC insulation spread by the air conditioning system. This provision of the code doesn't even apply to "supply" air plenums under raised computer room floors. I have never encountered it in any residential space and makes no sense to me in a non commercial building. What code reference do you cite as an example in Washington DC or elsewhere? |
| This cow won't hunt | Warren Warren
Nov 29, 2001 7:38 AM | | Wow! I am impressed with your electrical knowledge. To tell you the truth, I couldn't tell you the exact location in the DC code, but I believe it was applied because these cables may be run through the supply ducts in residential installations, not just the returns. I am not a licensed electrician, and am merely going by experience with them. Also, I have seen not only DC, but Montgomery County, Maryland, require plenum cable in floor trays. Again, I am not an electrician, and not entirely familiar with the local codes, so I am admitting the possibility of error here. Maybe it's just more examples of people trying to make a buck on cable, but I have seen it happen (in these cases, with Category 5 cable, not audio) on many occasions. I assume that the code would apply to any type or usage of cable, be it low voltage-low current computer signals or high-current audio signals. |
| if the cow is dead, does that mean it won't moo any more? | itellitlikeitis
Nov 29, 2001 9:46 AM | | I've designed and built a lot of them. I've also bought over a million dollars worth of wire at one time or another.
Proponents of teflon insulated wire for audio systems claim that its superior dielectric characteristics "sounds" better. Does it? I don't know. As with the rest of this voodoo, the cult has no evidence one way or another. You puts your money down and you takes your choice. |
| Only if you don't step on it(nt) | FLZapped
Dec 3, 2001 7:40 AM | | |
| why buy an audio system if you can't hear music correctly? (nt) | Musika
Nov 29, 2001 1:44 PM | | |
| why buy a camera when you're married to Marylin Monroe? | itellitlikeitis
Nov 30, 2001 6:06 AM | | Because the enjoyment derived from a facsimile, even a poor one, is better than nothing when we can't hear real music at a live performance. The proof is the hundred year record of commercial success of even the most mediocre equipment and recordings including 78s and wax cylinders. I thought that would be obvious to anyone. |
| re: Why pay more for cables? | FLZapped
Nov 29, 2001 5:48 AM | | 1)WHile gold does resist corrosion very well, it is also the most susceptible to being "rubbed off" by repeated insertions and removals from equipment. So depending on the application, it may not be suitable. Further, most homes have controlled environments where other metals would serve equally well, such as bright tin plating.
2) That seems rather obvious. No one here as suggested either 22 AWG, not going to welding cable. You'll find most stop at 12 AWG.
3) Appearance is certainly a factor. However, one could also use a magic marker, or colored tape to differentiate their cables.
4) the type of solder does not guarantee a good joint. You could also get a bad crimp as well, for those companies who do that. It's a matter of the care taken.
5) Yeah, you could do that, You would have to avoid the tack strips though and be ready to purchase 50 conuctor ribbon to get enough equivalent surface area per channel. If you don't have to traverse across a travelled area, round conductors are fine under carpets too.
6) This varies from place to place, one should always check with their local building codes. If you're lazy and don't want to do that, it's always better to err conservatively.
-Bruce |
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