|   interconnect | ryanng
Nov 30, 2001 11:10 PM | | hi everyone,
i'm trying to get more detail and dynamic out of my system. i'm now trying to replace the interconnect between my pre-amp and power amp, with a better one. The one between cd player and pre-amp is Taralab ref. gen II which i'm keeping.
I'hv found a local made interconnect(brand is Diva) which i think is a better one than the one i'm replacing as well as the Taralab.
My question is, will i get more detail by placing the Diva ic between the cd player and pre-amp or between the pre and power amp. |
| re: interconnect | Eyespy
Dec 1, 2001 8:36 AM | | "My question is, will i get more detail by placing the Diva ic between the cd player and pre-amp or between the pre and power amp."
Are those the only two answer options? |
| re: interconnect | Pat D
Dec 1, 2001 9:38 AM | | What makes you think that you will get more details and dynamics out of your system by changing interconnects?
You might ask yourself just how interconnects could do anything like that. Why do you think that Diva interconnects are better than Taralab interconnects, or for that matter, Radio Shack interconnects? |
| re: interconnect | eV
Dec 1, 2001 12:59 PM | | "Why do you think that Diva interconnects are better than Taralab interconnects, or for that matter, Radio Shack interconnects?"
From my experience with Radio Shack products in general, the quality control is poor. Back when I would buy Radio Shack interconnects, I bought enough of them to wire up my system that consisted of an amp, preamp, graphic equalizer, cd player, tape deck. Out of the ICs that I brought home, 1/3 of them were faulty. Brought them back. Out of the ones that I exchanged for, half were faulty. Not good!
About a year ago, I went to Radio Shack to purchase a SPL meter. Not, once, not twice, but three exchanges because it didn't work.
So needless to say. Radio Shack does not get my business anymore. Not even for the simplest of items.
I did notice that the price of everything they carry, (all entry level stuff) was no longer competitive. Must be the price they pay to have Howie Long and his wife hype their faulty products.
eV |
| re: interconnect | Pat D
Dec 1, 2001 1:49 PM | | Never had any problem with RS interconnects or with their SPL meter. You may have just had bad luck. |
| re: interconnect | mtrycrafts
Dec 1, 2001 3:06 PM | | I don't have any problems with their products. You must have had the bad bunch in the lot. Happens to the best cables too.
And since RS sells more, it will have more defects. Yes, even the Rolls has problems. |
| re: interconnect | That guy what wears a shirt
Dec 6, 2001 1:15 AM | | Rolls-Royces do not break down......they fail to proceed! |
| 2 reads, LOL :-) nt | mtrycrafts
Dec 6, 2001 5:40 PM | | nt |
| re: interconnect | Raider fan
Dec 3, 2001 11:15 AM | | Teri hatcher is not Howie's wife. If you cannot figure out who she is, then how can you judge equipment? |
| re: interconnect | mtrycrafts
Dec 1, 2001 3:09 PM | | "i'm trying to get more detail and dynamic out of my system. i'm now trying to replace the interconnect"
You are turing to the wrong solution to what you want. You need to work with your speakers and room acoustics, and perhaps, the recordings for better quality, not to the ICs. |
| re: interconnect | FLZapped
Dec 1, 2001 10:18 PM | | Interconects are passive devices and cannot have an affect on the dynamics.
You need to look elswhere than your interconnects for your solution.
-Bruce |
| re: interconnect | Jon Risch
Dec 2, 2001 5:55 PM | | [ Interconects are passive devices and cannot have an affect on the dynamics. ]
Now where are the citations and references for your CLAIM?
Come on, we are all waiting with baited breath!
This is a bald0faced, no qualifications, no excuses CLAIM, so were is the data?
How much some one what to bet there will be NO information forthcoming, NOTHING, NADA, ZIPPO?
Any takers?
Jon Risch |
| And you accuse me of a vendetta? | FLZapped
Dec 3, 2001 3:42 AM | | [ Interconects are passive devices and cannot have an affect on the dynamics. ]
Now where are the citations and references for your CLAIM?
Jon, even you have enough sense to know this is common knowledge. Are you that filled with hate that you would embarass youself in this way?
And you accuse me of a harboring a vendetta.
-Bruce |
| Good questions | Robot Czar
Dec 3, 2001 5:14 PM | | Jon knows very well that there is some evidence that interconnects are basically audibly transparent. For example, at the ABX website. But, in his little world, this evidence doesn't count because it doesn't agree with his claims.
He also knows that there is zero credible evidence that interconnects make a significant difference in typical home audio systems. So, your statement that "even you have enough sense" may not be correct. |
| Whose questions? | Jon Risch
Dec 3, 2001 7:18 PM | | The ABX website is not a peer reviewed, professional journal publication paper. Therefore it is not considered valid scinetific evidence that we can all agree on. Correctly speaking, it is anecdotal evidence.
If we are going to admit web site evidence, then we admit my evidence and that of others, which has positives for audio cables, and the argument is over, there are audible differences for audio cables. Positive results override null results every time, that is the way of true scientific methods concerning statistics.
Or for instance, there are popular press magazine articels with blind test that show positives for interconnects, and yet NO such published articels that had nulls for interconnects. By the very logic and scientific rationale so often invoked by naysayer's, the conclusion should be that there are audible differences for audio interconnects.
However, you want to play the same tired old hypocritical game, of accepting and encouraging acceptance of anecdotal nulls as negatives, all the while ignoring, and dismissing the same kinds of positive results.
Your world becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, you can never be wrong, because you merely deny the existence or validity of all opposing viewpoints.
There is not REALLY zero credible evidence, it is just the naysayers will not admit to any of the evidence presented, none. So again, by simple denial, the question is rendered forever in favor of the naysayers by just refusing to acknowlege anything but that which confirms and validates their POV.
Fortunately, this kind of continual denial/reeaffirmation routine is transparent to a great many readers, they can see the logical fallacy, and the belief system at work.
BTW, I note that you have not responded to my rebuttal concerning dithering algorithms, and noise shaping. Have you re-read the Audio article, and realized your mistake?
Jon Risch |
| Whose questions? | mtrycrafts
Dec 3, 2001 11:41 PM | | "then we admit my evidence and that of others, "
Review, yes, admit? Well, it cannot pass rudimentary muster, so you have nothing to admit. When you acquire credibility, Jon, please reapply your evidence.
". Positive results override null results every time, that is the way of true scientific methods concerning statistics. "
Yes, it does. Where are your positives, Jon? When will you sit down and demonstrate? When you have some credible evidence, please try again then.
"Or for instance, there are popular press magazine articels with blind test that show positives for interconnects, "
For instance, Jon? Which one? HT? LOL. That is your downfall, Jon, you have no clue how to evaluate anything written, or only what you want to support you. That HT article is anything but blind and anything but made a same/differnece test. Just didn;t happen, Jon. Pleas read it, again. |
| Do not dodge the real issue | Jon Risch
Dec 3, 2001 7:06 PM | | that of your claim.
Common knowledge? Why? If it is so simple, then simply explain why interconnects can not affect the dynamics of music.
After all, you did make that claim.
There are several mechanisms whereby the signal can have delayed storage of energy, deleterious impedance effects that would tend to limit dynamics given the typical output stages used, and so on. As is often the case, just because you can not even conceive of them, does not mean they do not exist.
In any case, I am not the one who is embarrasing themselves concerning audio issues.
Jon Risch |
| Do not dodge the real issue | mtrycrafts
Dec 3, 2001 11:47 PM | | "There are several mechanisms whereby the signal can have delayed storage of energy, deleterious impedance effects that would tend to limit dynamics given the typical output stages used, and so on. As is often the case, just because you can not even conceive of them, does not mean they do not exist. "
Oh, really? Energy storage? How much, Jon? Data please? Numbers that it affects the audible sound. DBT lisytening tests to confirm your speculations? Why don't you have them? Doesn't exist?
"In any case, I am not the one who is embarrasing themselves concerning audio issues"
No, of course not, Jon, you can hear solder joints, insulation differneces, cable platings, length differences, gauge differences, everything. Only one on the planet. How does it feel, Jon?
Yes, you sure know audio issues. |
| So lets take a poll among our peers.... | FLZapped
Dec 4, 2001 7:06 AM | | [There are several mechanisms whereby the signal can have delayed storage of energy, deleterious impedance effects that would tend to limit dynamics given the typical output stages used, and so on. ]
OK, so then, where is your data? Your proof, Jon. You make wild claims and then have the balls to try and say I am making unheard of claims, you think I'm embarring myself.
Why not take a poll among the engineers and technicians on this board and find out how many feel that cables are either a passive or active device, Jon.
-Bruce |
| If you're gonna' take a pole on the pier... | Resident Loser
Dec 4, 2001 8:34 AM | | ...make sure you have a valid fishing license...
It's a game of semantics, because one could take the textbook definition of the two terms and depending on how you wheedle the info, you can make the argument to support either position...but...in normal parlance and practical application( and for the nearly 33yrs. of my experience) an active device(and make note of the word "device") is one that usually contains the components and even power supplies to perform a specific function. Passive usually consists of the wiring and general hardware that would house the active parts of the circuit; accomodations can be made for the effect the "passive" parts of the ckt.(as they admittedly can have), but that, IMHO, doesn't confer upon them the title "active".
jimHJJ(...and then, of course, we have the average, run-of-the-mill loudspeaker xover...it is "active" in the sense that it performs a specific task and yet "passive" in that it is not powered and it's results are simply a by-product of the electrical properties of the contained components....much like wire...) |
| Uhm, thanks, lemme check my wallet(nt) | FLZapped
Dec 4, 2001 11:21 AM | | |
| Answer | Jon Risch
Dec 2, 2001 5:50 PM | | The only way to find out for sure, is to listen for yourself.
Usually, the advice is to use the best cables upstream, on the theory that once something is lost or distorted, it can not be regained or undistorted later.
However, system interactions may render this a moot point, so the best thing to do is try it both ways: TARA Gen II between CD and pre, and Diva between pre and power, THEN Diva between CD and pre, and TARA Gen II between pre and power.
Jon Risch |
| Answer | FLZapped
Dec 3, 2001 6:11 AM | | [Usually, the advice is to use the best cables upstream, on the theory that once something is lost or distorted, it can not be regained or undistorted later.]
Hmmm, really? Then you are assuming all distortion is additve. Hav you any hard data that shows this reaches the level of audibility?
[However, system interactions may render this a moot point, so the best thing to do is try it both ways:]
Ah yes, now the cop-out statement. In otherowrds, rather than takeing a chance that you might be wrong, you throw this in so you have a convienient scape-goat.
[TARA Gen II between CD and pre, and Diva between pre and power, THEN Diva between CD and pre, and TARA Gen II between pre and power. ]
Gee Jon, are you getting kick-backs for promoting these cables?
-Bruce |
| Answer | Jon Risch
Dec 3, 2001 7:32 PM | | [ Hmmm, really? Then you are assuming all distortion is additve. Hav you any hard data that shows this reaches the level of audibility? ]
Have you never heard of the superposition theorum? Last time I checked, it was still valid.
However, the research has just not been done very well in terms of determining this. mtry always wants to cite the JND studies and the threshold of hearing studies, and relate them to what we hear on an audio system with music. The problem is, none of these studies make this correlation, it is mtry who is making the correlation, WITHOUT BENEIFT OF ANYTHING TO BASE HIS CORRELATION ON. Nothing. Or at elast nothig he has ever attempted to explain, because then hee would have to come up with some references and citations that provide backup for his claims, and this is a lot of work for nothing,m the data is not there.
Then consider this: what happens when you add a barely sub-therhold amount of harmonic distrortion, to a barely sub-threeshold amount of IM distortion? Consider this scenario for all the various forms of distortions that exist. Now add together three different kinds of distortions. Real world components and devices do not JUST have one kind of distortion, they typically have several different distortion mechanisms occuring at one time.
Unfortunately, there are NO studies on this that I have ever seen, and certainly the next step of correlating such data with hearing it on music has not been done, as it has not even been done for correlating the mainstream threshold and JND data with what wee hear on home music playback.
[ Gee Jon, are you getting kick-backs for promoting these cables? ]
You really are that easily confused?
He states what cables he is talking about in HIS post, and refers to them by name, and where he wants to put them. In my reply, I talk about the same cables he posts about, what a coincidence! Geez, you are dense!
Of course, you must try to say I am on the take, immoral, a bad person. It would just not be a proper vendetta against me without it!
It is just SOOOOO obvious in instances like this, that you are posting it just to have said it.
Jon Risch |
| Answer | FLZapped
Dec 4, 2001 7:02 AM | | [Have you never heard of the superposition theorum? Last time I checked, it was still valid. ]
Only if it applicable in this case, please show us where it is.
Well, Jon, I am beginning to wonder if you are getting kick-backs, since so many of your ideas are parrotting what the esoteric cable companies are claiming, also without validation.
-Bruce |
| re: interconnect | ryanng
Dec 3, 2001 12:19 AM | | i guess my question is a general one: should a detailed(better) interconnect be placed upstream or downstream in the sys, to get more detail in the end result?
Another question: to evaluate a component would it be easier to assume other things or component unchanged, or variable?
The Ans to the 2nd question is obvious enough: how can we know the contribution of the component under evaluation to the sound if we keep changing other components in the sys?
Yes Jon you give good advice, i intended to try it both ways.
For those kind ppl who think cables can't affect detail and dynamics, you might just be missing out something. The effect might be small, but it does contribute to the sys. |
| re: interconnect | Markw*
Dec 3, 2001 4:03 AM | | "For those kind ppl who think cables can't affect detail and dynamics, you might just be missing out something."
...or could it be that you just might be convincing yourself that you hear something that really isn't there?
"The effect might be small, but it does contribute to the sys."
Perhaps small enough to be inaudiable?
One can never tell for sure, can one? |
| re: interconnect | FLZapped
Dec 3, 2001 6:07 AM | | [For those kind ppl who think cables can't affect detail and dynamics, you might just be missing out something. The effect might be small, but it does contribute to the sys.]
Cables are passive, they won't attenuate selectively in a way that would affect the dynamics of your system. But I suppose yoiur mind was already made up and were just lookig for a viewpoint to bolster your own. If you want more of the same, you can always go over to Audio Asylum, where the laws of physics and the art of engineering are meaningless.
-Bruce |
| re: interconnect | mtrycrafts
Dec 3, 2001 11:51 PM | | "For those kind ppl who think cables can't affect detail and dynamics, you might just be missing out something."
No, some just imagine it. |
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