| AudioREVIEW's Forum Archives - Cables & Interconnects |
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|   I don't want to get involved in this BS, but explain... | StevenSurprenant
Jun 11, 2002 11:47 AM | | Why is it that when several people get together to review cables, they almost always agree on the changes they hear.
Good or bad...
I have done this repeatedly with different people over the years with the same result. I have also found that wire cost has no bearing on the outcome of the results.
Naysayers, this is your chance voice your opinions, but please stick to <b><u>this issue only</u></b>.
Yeasayers, have you had the same experiances? |
| Many possibilities... | MonstrousMike
Jun 11, 2002 12:08 PM | | Here is my potential, partial list of explanations as to what you may have experienced if you though you heard something but there were actually no wire differences:
1. Peer pressure
2. Power of suggestion
3. Expectation theory
4. Mass delusion
5. Mass hysteria
6. Change in sound was due to some other factor
7. Mood or disposition of the listeners
8. Desire or motivations
In my opinion it was probably a combination of the first three and eight. Think back as to why you were doing this. Did you discuss the purpose with your friends? Did you show them the new wires? Do they have their own audio systems? Were you showing extreme excitement before the test? Were the listeners tired and just wanted to leave?
To really know, I would have to gather the same group of your friends and repeat the test with proper ABX testing procedures. If your group duplicated your previous results, I would truly be astonished. |
| You're not the only one that would be surprised, Mike | woodman
Jun 11, 2002 12:14 PM | | excellent post by the way
woodman
P.S. To Steve:
Unless these "tests" were blind in some meaningful way, the results you mention have absolutely no validity whatsoever. Such "testing" will only validate one's attitudes, beliefs, and expectations as Mike has already pointed out. |
| Just trying to understand... | StevenSurprenant
Jun 11, 2002 12:57 PM | | Interesting...
Here is some more info...
A week ago I went to a friends house with 4 different ICs.
UTP Cat 5 (homemade)
Nordost Blue Heaven
AQ Emerald
AQ Opal
This friend lives 500 miles from me and for months I had been talking to him about how great the UTP wire was. He begged me to come down so he could hear them.
Even though we were both expecting great things from the UTP wire, it sounded horrible in his system. In fact, his cheap Red/Black ICs were much better. We were both surprised since our expectations were that these wires would be very good.
By the way, these wires sound very good in my system.
Well we tried the other wires and we both agreed that the AQ Emeralds worked best in his system. Of these other wires I expected the the Nordost would be the best of these commercial wires. Again, not agreeing with my expectations. |
| Just trying to understand... | mtrycrafts
Jun 11, 2002 10:36 PM | | Another exp[lanation is that you only looking at a small sample that agrees. You miss all th eothers that have a different opinion on that cable. Similar to the ones claimig their wives correctly identified something. But they forget all th etimes when she didn't
Selective memory. No mystery. |
| Many possibilities... | Spiky
Jun 12, 2002 6:49 AM | | I mostly agree with these items. The problem is that naysayers feel any observations based from these or similar points should all be rejected and science is the only path. Here's an analysis.
1, 2) Often a problem, but can be defeated or lessened if care is taken. And if the people involved have an ounce of self worth (most people don't) and listening experience.
3) Good point. Probably the most important to audiophiles' long-term listening anecdotes comparing similar wires, whether they like it or not.
4, 5) A little inflammatory, basically a rewording of 1 and 2.
6) Of course this is possible, but usually any effect can be removed with repeated testing.
7) 2nd most important after #3, this one is important for short-term listening anecdotes.
8) For "unbiased" individuals, similar to #1. Obviously any mfgr doing a sighted test including "their" cable should be dismissed for bias. Or salesman.
The overlooked point: If your mind is convinced, the difference is real. Doesn't matter if no one else hears it, including machinery. Beware the Matrix..... |
| Many possibilities... | MonstrousMike
Jun 12, 2002 9:41 AM | | <<<< If your mind is convinced... >>>>
This also may be the problem with yeasayers. If you had one positive result of a home test, you may be convinced that differences are real, not imagined, and that may be the end of the discussion.
Contrary to what some may feel about me, I am not absolutely convinced either way. I merely hold that it is likely that if any differences exist, they are grossly exaggerated. As well, if there is any real difference, it is too small or subtle for me to spend extra cash on newer, better wires.
If I were to upgrade my system, I would start with new speakers and then move on to room treatments and reconfiguring my speaker setup. After that, it's a flagship receiver, maybe even separates. |
| After that, it's a flagship receiver, maybe even separates... | Warren Warren
Jun 12, 2002 7:30 PM | | Come on MM, you don't mean to tell me that you DON'T already have separates!?!?!? I thought you were into this audio stuff!!! Don't you know that putting a tuner and quite probably a D/A converter in the same box with a pre-amp is just asking to introduce noise into your later amplification stages!!! I'm sorry, but I may have to start calling you MTRY!!! After all, aren't you both from Canada?!?! Another MTRY is also Eyespy, JDBriggs, etc. conspiracy theory! ; ) |
| I ain't gittin' yer gist...... | MonstrousMike
Jun 12, 2002 9:31 PM | | Hey, if I was Mtry, I would be askin' for some results of your separates vs. receiver testing. If we're introducin' noises, surely goshdarn they can be measured on an engineerin' instrument.
But since I ain't Mtry, I ain't gonna say that.
That's 'cause I really don't know anythin' 'bout noise, you know, being a combat systems engineer on a ship and all. It was the Canadian Navy so we don't really care if our 'quipment don't work 'cause we got real powerful friends. And we can hide behind them if our 'quipment is noisy and stuff. |
| The potential here boggles the mind. | pctower
Jun 13, 2002 2:34 AM | | If the purists would allow it on this forum, this has all the makings of an epic new war: separates vs. receivers.
Warren has already gotten it off to a good start by belittling both you and your system.
Personally, I prefer separates because they allow me more spots where I can insert the latest and greatest breakthroughs in cable technology as they become available.
Unfortunately I have not been able to come up with a name for this new debate that carries the poetic punch of The Great Cable Wars, so I fear this golden opportunity for us to renew our attacks on each others intellect, character, family upbringing and manhood may slip away. |
| Glad to see you're refreshed from your holidays... | MonstrousMike
Jun 13, 2002 6:36 AM | | <<<< I fear this golden opportunity for us to renew our attacks on each others intellect, character, family upbringing and manhood may slip away. >>>>
Don't forget these: speed of computer, distinguishing body features, male pattern baldness, and a favourite of mine, personal hygene. |
| The potential here boggles the mind. | Spiky
Jun 13, 2002 7:34 AM | | I'll throw in another taboo: HT.
With HT receivers vs separates, the difference gets worse. Almost no receiver has comparable amps to almost any separate HT amp. The mfgrs seem to have made some pretty decent amps in receivers with only 2 channels, but once they bumped up to 5-7 channels, they didn't bother trying to keep up with a "real" amp.
A couple of the flagship HT receivers aren't bad, like Denon's. But these cost as much or more than comparable separates, anyway. |
| Always up to a good argument? | StevenSurprenant
Jun 13, 2002 9:02 AM | | What you suggest is of interest to many people on this board.
The only thing I could add to this is that my 1970s reciever was pretty good. In the 90s I bought a couple of recievers that I immeadiately took back to the store because they sounded quite bad. They were NOT top of the line though.
I have been using separates now for about 13 years and I have never looked back. I have heard some recievers that do sound pretty good in the store, but for the most part it is rare that a reciever impresses me.
Besides, I am a purist of sorts and find that the HT recievers are OK for movies, but for music, they leave much to be desired.
There was a time in my life when I thought that recievers were the cats meow...I guess that that day has come and gone...
I might add that some separates might not be as good as some recievers...
I would like to hear peoples opinions on this, but then it would have to be moved over to the Amplifiers/Preamplifiers link.
Who knows what we might learn... |
| Always up to a good argument? | hifitommy
Jun 15, 2002 11:19 AM | | i agree that separates is the way to go for several reasons. upgrading isnt a major complete changeover. a guy can go to more powerful amps, tube amps, more refined amps, without changing the front end.
the front end (the preamp/processor-they dont even know what that is at circuit shittty) can be upgraded to the latest technology without replacing amplifiers that youre already happy with.
furthermore, separates can be made better due to additional space within the chassis which contributes to electrical and physical isolation.
when a component breaks, you can often work around the situation so you arent in complete silence.
receivers can be good for space savings and for many that is a major consideration. but if youre serious about ultimate sound quality, separates gives yoou the flexibility to expand and improve incrementally.
.......regards....tr |
| Toungue in cheek | Warren Warren
Jun 13, 2002 7:33 PM | | Hey PCT! I was not belittling MM or his system. In fact, there are some great receivers (even HT) on the market now. In fact, I was using one (Onkyo TXSV-989) before I upgraded to the Anthem. In fact, I think MM is aware of this. In fact, there has been a duel about sep's vs. recievers on almost every other forum on this site. BTW, you can check out my system here:
http://www.audioreview.com/GALPhoto_52849crx.aspx
http://www.audioreview.com/GALPhoto_52746crx.aspx
Glad you are enjoying your vacation. I myself will be in Portland, Oregon this weekend, and will be back Tues. See you all then. |
| My cheek was in the extruded mode too. | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 4:15 AM | | However, no self-respecting audiophile posts his system on AR rather than AA.
Have a good weekend. Are you leaving town for a secret rendezvous with SMG? |
| re: I don't want to get involved in this BS, but explain... | Abex
Jun 11, 2002 1:08 PM | | Any changes I make in either Wires or Electronics have a bearing on the listening results as far as I am concerned.Some are not always as apparent at first,but they will creep in to be noticable .Other's are downright noticable at the outset! |
| Thanks | StevenSurprenant
Jun 12, 2002 6:24 PM | | I am not sure if this explains what I have experienced, but I do appreciate your responses... |
| re: I don't want to get involved in this BS, but explain... | Norm Strong
Jun 13, 2002 8:21 PM | | A group of people will almost always agree on what they hear. It's more comfortable being with the majority. In fact, they will usually agree on the changes they hear even when there are NO changes whatsoever.
If you can arrange for every person to commit themselves without being in contact with the others, you will then find the comments quite a bit different from each other. |
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