|   Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | zman1974
Jun 13, 2002 3:08 PM | | System (current):
NHT Supertwo Mains
NHT Superone center and surrounds
Velodyne CT-150 subwoofer
Denon AVR-3200 Receiver
Pioneer DV-414 DVD/CD Player
Upgrades in the very near future:
An SACD/DVD or stand-a-lone SACD player.
Current Cables and interconnects
Monster cable used throughout, though I don't know the exact type.
Need recommendation for taming brightness, and improving the overall tonal balance. (big surprise, I'm sure). Something not too expensive, and preferably can be purchased online. I plan on replacing all the cables in the system. Note that I would also like your ideas on what interconnects should be used for the SACD connection as well.
Any help you could provide.
Thanks,
Z |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! | Warren Warren
Jun 13, 2002 6:11 PM | | You are making us Yeah-sayers look bad. Cables and interconnects should NOT be used as TONE CONTROLS. That is why your PRE-AMP has them. If it doesn't, I suggest you look into buying an EQUALIZER. Interconnects and Speaker wires should be used to deliver the maximum signal/current between components with the least amount of filtering/attenuation possible. If you don't like the sound of your NHT's, buy some new speakers. If you really are dissatisfied with the quality of your IC's/SC's, there are a lot of good one's out there for $50 or less, such as IXOS, A/R, and OUTLAW. However, I would suggest you look at some different solutions if you are really unhappy with your speakers being too bright. Maybe close the curtains in your room if you have exposed windows, or hang some tapestries. Or, get some new speakers! |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! | zman1974
Jun 13, 2002 6:30 PM | | I know the components I am using with the NHT's are not the sweetest sounding things ever created. That is why I intend to replace them, starting with the DVD player, as time and money allows. I never said I do not like the sound of the NHT's; they are neutral speakers, and reflect the quality of all components downstream as well as anything in their price class. They sound great with well-recorded material; I just know they can sound a great deal better. I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to any good, affordable cables and interconnects baised towards the warm side of neutral. |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! x2 | Warren Warren
Jun 13, 2002 7:23 PM | | "interconnects baised towards the warm side of neutral"
Obviously you did not read my post. Neutral has no sides! Think SWITZERLAND! What the hell would the "warm" side be, anyway? I know your Denon has tone controls. USE THEM! Or, GET NEW SPEAKERS! NHT's are fine, but a far cry from the best speaker ever made. Maybe you would prefer the sound of a silk-dome tweeter like a Dynaudio better. Cables are one of the last tweeks after you have all the gear you want. Are you sure you are not a troll? |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! x2 | JoeW
Jun 13, 2002 10:10 PM | | Geez dude. Take it easy on the poor guy. Maybe you can afford to replace speakers on a whim, many cannot. While I agree with your 'philosphy', I dont see anything wrong using a particular cable to tame an 'annoyance' - provided you understand that.
Lets be clear. Cables cannot add anything to a signal. They can only subtract. The poster wanted a 'warmer' sound. This adds up to a de-emphasis of HF's. He seems to understand this. He is also using Monsters.
I had a pr af Monsters (their high end at the time) that was EXCESSIVELY bright. (LF de-emphasis) These worked well with a Denon CDP that could be characterized as 'very laid back'. They were flat out annoying in all other applications.
As for tone controls, my preamp has none. I have a graphic equalizer buried in a closet somewhere. I'd pull my own teeth before I pulled that thing out.
As to the original request:
MIT's might be good for you, especially if you live in a high RFI environment (such an environment will be most noticable in the HF range)I live in such an area, and these were quite helpful as a source IC. They were not helpful from pre to amp. Many people seem like Kimbers for the reasons you state, but I have no experience with them.
I would NOT recable my entire rig all at once, if I was buying commercial cables. I'd play around, and move acceptable cables to lower priorities when I found something I liked better.
OTOH, I went the DIY route. The amount of material available at a reasonable cost (price/foot) left me with enough material to recable my entire rig. I'm quite pleased with the sound they help deliver. It wasn't particularly difficult, but it did take a little time.
If you're even moderately handy, check out Jon Risch's recipes. The bang/buck ratio is pretty close to astounding.
Maybe not the 'warm' sound you're looking for, but not the bright sound you presently have, either. If you pay attention to the shielding issues, they are very effective there too. |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! x2 | mtrycrafts
Jun 13, 2002 11:49 PM | | b I dont see anything wrong using a particular cable to tame an 'annoyance' - provided you understand that.
Because you cannot see. Cables just cannot do what many think it can. Another audio mythology, voodoo.
b The poster wanted a 'warmer' sound. This adds up to a de-emphasis of HF's.
Cables cannot do enough of this to be audible. No evidenc for this being audible exists.
b I had a pr af Monsters (their high end at the time) that was EXCESSIVELY bright.
Sheer speculation.
b As for tone controls, my preamp has none.
Obviously a junk, poor design, short sighted.
b The bang/buck ratio is pretty close to astounding.
Not at all, even if you exclude your labor and time. |
| Based on your comments.... | JoeW
Jun 14, 2002 8:56 PM | | ...of which there is not one worthy of thought or response. You're a simple belligerant. Audio is pretty obviously not an issue of interest to you. Your interest is the voodoo of DBT. I'm snoring.
ZZZzzzzzzz |
| ZZZzzzzzzz | mtrycrafts
Jun 14, 2002 10:41 PM | | ZZZzzzzzzz |
| Touched a nerve, did I? >nt< | JoeW
Jun 16, 2002 9:00 PM | | |
| EQ is an option | Spiky
Jun 14, 2002 7:00 AM | | > As for tone controls, my preamp has none. I have a graphic equalizer buried in a closet somewhere. I'd pull my own teeth before I pulled that thing out.
Many audiophiles say similar things. And, a graphic equalizer is not the greatest. However, a good parametric equalizer would be nice if you could take an SPL meter and test CD to find which frequencies are overstated in your room. A high-quality eq like a Rane will not ruin the signal, but can tone down (or up) problems. |
| EQ is a VIABLE option | CHRIS8
Jun 14, 2002 8:45 AM | | Yes, EQs USED to suck.
Fortunately, today their are capapble DSP based EQs that can be used with analogue in/out with minimal degradation, and if you use an external DAC, they can be looped in the digital chain with no degradation. Two manufacturers who offer such products are Tact and Behringer. The later of which requires the digital i/o card purchased as an option, but still much more affordable than the Tact.
-Chris |
| EQ is an option | JoeW
Jun 14, 2002 9:18 PM | | I know what you mean, but I see these more as a professional tool - where you lug the system from venue to venue. For a static installation - like a home set up - I think you're further ahead with room treatments. I find the shortest, simplest, signal path to be the most engaging. The most toe tapping, as it were. I guess you could say I like music more than I like pretty pictures of it. |
| EQ is an option | mtrycrafts
Jun 14, 2002 10:42 PM | | b I find the shortest, simplest, signal path to be the most engaging.
Then you'd love a SET amp, LOL |
| EQ is an option | JoeW
Jun 16, 2002 9:21 PM | | Unlike YOU, my enjoyment of music is very real, and very personal. Actually, I am looking at a couple SETS. The parafeeds from Doc Bottlehead seem worth investigatin.
I doubt you have a clue, as your singular interest seems to be well removed from things audio |
| EQ is an option | Spiky
Jun 17, 2002 6:53 AM | | b but I see these more as a professional tool
Perhaps that's an oversight. A $400 eq can fix 5 problem areas of the frequency range in an hour. Easier, faster and often cheaper than going all out on the room itself. A combination would probably be in order for most people who don't have a room shaped well for sound. |
| EQ is an option | JoeW
Jun 17, 2002 9:43 PM | | I'm not particularly fer or agin em. I prefer a short, simple signal path. In my experience, adding things like this may lead to a gorgeous picture of a musical event. It also distances you from the event itself. I'm not saying one approach is right, and the other wrong. My preferance is to get as close to the actual event itself, over (perhaps even more) precise snapshots of the same event. To each, thier own. |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! x2 | mtrycrafts
Jun 13, 2002 11:42 PM | | What's happening to you? Right in front of my eyes, a transformation :) |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! x2 | zman1974
Jun 14, 2002 2:55 AM | | Troll? The last time I looked, no. Perhaps I am simply trying to learn. Maybe you know everything there is to know about audio, but I don't. Don't confirm another myth about audiophiles; that they are all stuck-up snobs. And rude, too. Nevertheless, thanks for your advice. |
| Ooops!!! | Warren Warren
Jun 18, 2002 2:18 PM | | Sorry if I came across as rude. I just was a little aggravated that you didn't read the post just below yours before putting it on again, and then commenting on cable sound. As others have mentioned, and in all honesty, is probably the best solution for an unbalanced room such as yours, a good quality EQ is a possibility. Also, speaker placement and room treatments are especially important in a non-symetrical listening environment. I think you will find that deadening the sliding glass doors with a heavier curtain, and boosting the highs on the opposite speaker will improve your imaging significantly. I think JoeW probably has a more limited familiarity with EQ's than some of the other people posting on here. In fact, many of the better quality EQ's do not have a spectrum display, unless it actually serves a purpose aside from appearances. My EQ, for example, has a pink noise generator and a microphone, so you can use the display to create a flat room response. A parametric equalizer is one that let's you set the particular frequency range you would like to attenuate/boost, and these are excellent for taming room anomalies. Many of them have excellent S/N ratios and very low distortion, and any effects added in certainly will be less noticable than the "brightness" you are now experiencing. I apologize for my snobby behavior, and hope you will take my advice under consideration.
WW. |
| Yaarrrgggghhhhh!!! | zman1974
Jun 14, 2002 2:43 AM | | I know the components I am using with the NHT's are not the sweetest sounding things ever created. That is why I intend to replace them, starting with the DVD player, as time and money allows. I never said I do not like the sound of the NHT's; they are neutral speakers, and reflect the quality of all components downstream as well as anything in their price class. They sound great with well-recorded material; I just know they can sound a great deal better. I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestions as to any good, affordable cables and interconnects baised towards the warm side of neutral. |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | Pat D
Jun 13, 2002 11:41 PM | | There's nothing wrong with Monster cables except they cost too much.
I'm afraid Warren Warren is right here. If you wish to change the tonal balance, interconnects won't do it, and it is unlikely changing the speaker cables will have any significant effect either, unless you go to a very high gauge (smaller wire) with a lot more resistance. If you don't like the speakers' tonal balance, you have to either use the tone controls or EQ. I have not found conventional tone controls to be very useful, however.
You can possibly change the frequency balance by putting a resistor in the positive speaker line, but the results vary with the speakers, depending on their impedance curve. |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | mtrycrafts
Jun 13, 2002 11:55 PM | | Nothing wrong with those monsters, especially since you already have them.
b Need recommendation for taming brightness, and improving the overall tonal balance.
Sounds like speaker/room issues. Nothing else will solve this. Audio is full of hype, mythology, voodoo, and bs. |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | Billyjo
Jun 14, 2002 2:24 AM | | You can use cables as a tweak, if and only if you have all you main components sorted out. Actually i do not think an equalizer can fix brightness (nor warmth). As Warren said, new speakers maybe a good idea (costly also), or i'd suggest maybe a tube buffer (something like Musical Fidelity X10-D if you can still find them). When you have all the problem solved and still fancy some improvement, we can then give you some suggestions on cables. A set of Nordost will improve sound quality but will not eliminate the existing problems. |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | mtrycrafts
Jun 14, 2002 10:47 PM | | b You can use cables as a tweak, if and only if you have all you main components sorted out.
Really? How so? I am not aware of evidence that audible cable differences can be identified, so how can it be a tweak?
b Actually i do not think an equalizer can fix brightness (nor warmth).
How so? But of course it can.
b A set of Nordost will improve sound quality but will not eliminate the existing problems.
I am not aware of this evidence. Where is it hiding? |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | Jameson Davenport Briggs VII
Jun 14, 2002 4:31 AM | | Most offerings from Nordost will work for you. At the lab, our cable of reference is the Nordost Valhalla. This is overkill for what you've got. But they have many others that should fit your needs. consult Nordost directly for advice.
Which turntable system comprises your analogue front end?
That deserves better cabling.
Jameson Davenoport Briggs, Northern Maine |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | FLZapped
Jun 14, 2002 6:03 AM | | "consult Nordost directly for advice."
As if they'll give unbiased help....yeah, right.
Wanna buy my bridge?
-Bruce |
| More gems from northern Maine... | Resident Loser
Jun 14, 2002 8:29 AM | | ...whereabouts in "northern Maine? Can we get theyah from heyah?
"...Most offerings from Nordost will work for you..."
Why not all of them? Won't just about all "offerings" from all those who make such offers, "work"? I mean doesn't wire pass the signal from point "a" to point "b"? If something doesn't "work", what good is it? Not a particularly effective wire, eh? Or do you just mean to continue to misinform re: wires as tone controls?
"...At the lab, our cable of reference is the Nordost Valhalla..."
What "lab" might that be? Weyerhauser? Georgia-Pacific? Field testing McCullogh chainsaws requires such pricey "offerings"?
"...But they have many others that should fit your needs..."
Not to mention your RCA connectors, amp outputs and loudspeaker trminals...
"...This is overkill for what you've got..."
Rather snobby and assuming on your part...perhaps his upgrades will be based around extremely expensive cables... Isn't THAT the way it's done?
"...consult Nordost directly for advice..."
As Bruce pointed out, not a good idea. Why not just send a blank check to every after-market purveyor of such "offerings" along with a note that figuratively says "Kick Me!"...
"...Which turntable system comprises your analogue front end? That deserves better cabling..."
English your second language? Him no got vinyl...scratchy- scratchy...only bits and bytes...little, shiny rainbow circles...hubba-hubba Joe...er, Jameson...
jimHJJ(...well, at least there's the lobsta'...) |
| I'm still waiting for that ride... | MonstrousMike
Jun 14, 2002 12:44 PM | | Seriously, I need to get off this planet soon. |
| Take it easy on Jamey-san Douchenport Baggs VII | John McHugh
Jun 14, 2002 2:06 PM | | After seven generations on the receiving end of childish name-calling from bad-mannered, ethnic two-namers, wouldn't any family feel compelled to seek a reclusive existence in Northern Maine, experience delusions of grandeur, and succumb to irrational spending binges? |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | FLZapped
Jun 14, 2002 6:12 AM | | Cables/interconnects are not tone controls and should not be looked to to solve your problems(further clarification follows).
You'll get far beter results making sure the room acoustics and speaker placement are correct, don't overlook where the tweeters are in relation to your ears(are they at ear level?) at your listening position.
In order to affect the sound in a meaningful way with cables/interconnects, you'd have to find interconnects with extremely high capacitance per foot and use lots of it(over 25 feet) in order to make any audible difference in your system. Your equipment may not like that, though.
And for speakers, you'd need very light wire(high guage number) which will have a high amount of inductance and then use lots of it in order to make any audible difference in your system. Of course, this may be so resistively lossy too as to have a noticable temperature rise at higher power levels.
-Bruce |
| Could be room placement. Wait on the cables. | Bobby Blacklight
Jun 14, 2002 8:34 AM | | Sounds like it could be a room placement issue. Have you tried moving them around?? If they are in bass nulls they could sound bright. Also the room Lot's of glass?? Carpeted floor or wood?? Speakers far out away from the walls?? |
| Unfortunately, | audioengr
Jun 14, 2002 10:02 AM | | until you replace your receiver and CD player, you may be stuck with this sound. I would suggest looking for a used Sony DVP-S9000ES CD/DVD player and some separates, like Musical Fidelity pre and amp or integrated amp. If you get a SACD player, this should solve the source quality problem, assuming you get a decent one. |
| Unfortunately, | mtrycrafts
Jun 14, 2002 10:51 PM | | b until you replace your receiver and CD player, you may be stuck with this sound.
Why? Where is that elusive evidence to point to these two components as the cause? Speculation is not evidence. |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | insolite
Jun 14, 2002 12:03 PM | | MAD makes great cables for the price.
www.modernaudiodesign.com
However, they aren't going to change the tone of your system. They MAY open it up a bit and give you a bit more of a certain frequency, but it's unlikely you'll notice that huge of a difference given your components.
Your speakers are fine, maybe it's time to upgrade not only your CD/DVD, but investing in some preamp/amp combo. |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | zman1974
Jun 14, 2002 1:56 PM | | Thanks for all the good info. The obvious concurrence of the posts is that cables will not change to "tone" of the system. That is fine. I don't want the "tone" to signfigantly change. I just want the speakers I have to perform better. Of course, that will require better ancillary equipment, and I intend to upgrade to seperates in the future. I guess the conclusion is that it's far better to invest in better electronics first than try to replace your cables as a cheaper alternative.
By the way, the room/acoustic issue is definitely in play; I live in a one-bedroom apartment. The living room (where the system resides) is basically a beast.
To elaborate: If looking from the entry-way, the right "wall" contains a sliding glass door with a fairly thin curtain covering it. The left "wall" is not a wall at all, but opens up into a kitchen with an island in the center. To make matters worse, I have a 32" inch television sitting on a cheap wooden stand which is placed between the main speakers. The main speakers are located just in front of the television which helps with reflections somewhat. The left main speaker sits three feet from the television, while the right speaker sits only about 9 inches (this distance cannot be increased). That puts the right speaker a foot and a half from the sliding glass door/curtain. No toe-in on either speaker which helps with the brightness inherent with my components and room. I sit about eight feet from the speakers. Oh, the sub is located in the right corner. It's the only place I can really fit it.
Again, thanks for the help, and feel free to comment on any other changes/pointers you have.
Z |
| re: Need Interconnect/Speaker Cable Recommendation | mtrycrafts
Jun 14, 2002 10:56 PM | | b I just want the speakers I have to perform better. Of course, that will require better ancillary equipment,
Not necessarily so, UNless you hear clipping frequently.
b and I intend to upgrade to seperates in the future.
Don't expect too much from this move. Remember, audio is full of hype and myths.
b By the way, the room/acoustic issue is definitely in play; I live in a one-bedroom apartment. The living room (where the system resides) is basically a beast.
And you wanted this solved by componets? |
| Mtry you're a software answering machine!! nt. | Billyjo
Jun 15, 2002 1:27 AM | | |
| Use very long, and very thin, speaker wire. | A
Jun 17, 2002 11:20 AM | | If you start with, say 1000 feet of 24 gauge, that will probably "tame" the brightness rather well. And if that is not enough, wrap it around a broom stick to form a coil....
If the 1000 feet of 24 gauge takes away too much treble, cut it down until you get the results you want.
The brand of wire is unimportant to this.
Of course, the easier way to diminish treble is simply to turn down the treble control. |
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