|   My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | JasonB
Jun 15, 2002 9:06 PM | | Hi, first let me state that I'm only 17 years old. I have an old sanyo 12 watt reciever and sanyo speakers from 1975. They were my dad's and enjoy every cd I play because I love music. I plan to build a system soon and I like others are faced with a cable dilema, whether to invest in them or not. It seems to me neasayers would like measurable results and accurate double blind tests. This is fair enough however this post will come across as being more of a yeasayer account. Who cares if the are measureable effects. All of us want to get the best out of OUR systems for OUR enjoyment, nit that of our spouses, neighbours or friends. I think it's perfectly feasible to think there's more than just measurements going on when we listen to music. Pshychoacoustics if you will. If someone can convince their brain that they hear music with more accuracy, tonal balance, soundstage depth, whatever the case, for a mere fraction of their total system cost so be it.It's ultimately up to each individual to decide if they think more "high frequency information" is worth a hundred and fifty dollars, even if it's their mind telling them they hear something. I'm suggesting to all those out there to uprgrade your cables, allow your mind to take control and pschychoacoustics to let you perceive a difference, then using your rational mind ask yourself is this improvement worth x amount of dollars. If it is then congratulations, your one step closer to your ideal system sound, your high fidelity. I plan to give cables a shot and not dismiss them as so many openly have. Please feel free to shoot me down, make fun of me, find errors in my logic. But as you do know that as you worry and bicker amongst yourselves I will be sitting in front of my 27 year old system enjoying every bit of music there is to hear (and maybe not hear). Listening is an experience, to be taken in all at once. The power of the mind is unrivaled. I'm willing to bet everyone hear has once gotten so into a piece of music that you just felt as though you were there, in that stadium, concert hall or jazz club, only to be brought back to earth by a ringing cell phone only to realise your in your 1988 Civic with paper cone woofers and 30 gauge wire wrap. Jason. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | skeptic
Jun 16, 2002 3:42 AM | | Since you are only seventeen years old, you are not very experienced in the ways of business and the world. Take it from someone more than three times your age, there are a lot of people out there just too eager to take as much of your money as they can without the slightest hint of a conscience knowing full well that you will be getting little or none of the benefit you expect. Put your money into something that WILL give you greater enjoyment, better speakers, better amplifiers, more music. None of the people here including the so called expert yeasayers would suggest that you will get much benefit from expensive cables in your 1975 system. If you must consider them, save that expense for the last thing you buy with A WRITTEN AGREEMENT from the seller that you can get ALL YOUR MONEY BACK, NO QUESTIONS ASKED if you are dissatisfied with your cables. When you're 17, unless your family is rich and generouos, money is hard come, easy go. Good luck. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | Billyjo
Jun 16, 2002 5:18 AM | | I don't see age has anything to do with this issue, i'm 21, so what? 42yrs old man will be twice as wise as i am? Maybe not. However, Skeptic did make his point, until you have all the rest of your main components (source, amps and speakers) sorted out, the need for expensive cablings is little. Good cables gives less constraint to your system, they will not make a handheld radio sound any better. You need to get some good quality components to appreciate the benefits of better cablings. Or you may end up complaining about you XLO signature doesn't improve the sound of your kitchen radio. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | skeptic
Jun 17, 2002 6:44 PM | | After you've been around a while, you see a lot of scams and over hyped garbage sold for big money when the fad hits only to fade into oblivion when the next wave comes along. If you're caught up in this and haven't been around very long, you don't know how this system operates to steal people's money for expensive useless junk they don't need, doesn't do them any real good, and wouldn't want if they knew the truth. On the other hand, there are those in this world who insist on "don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is made up." They will be suckers and easy prey all their lives. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | MonstrousMike
Jun 16, 2002 10:35 AM | | Hey, there's lots of stuff in life we would like to beleive is true. Sometimes we can even force it, disregarding strong evidence to the contrary.
Why should speaker wire and interconnects be any different? |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | pctower
Jun 17, 2002 11:59 AM | | b disregarding strong evidence to the contrary
What is that "strong" evidence? |
| You back again... | MonstrousMike
Jun 17, 2002 12:16 PM | | In the case of wires, strong evidence is no evidence. Since wires have been around awhile, and even exotic wires have been with us for over 20 years, you'd think that proof of their benefit would be on the table by now.
Really counsellor, if this cable debate was a court of law, the case for cable differences would be thrown out for lack of evidence.
My case has already been made. I have a physics and engineering background, which unfortunately is most times difficult to work into the proceedings. And there a plenty of null blind test results, including my own.
The ball's in your court (unitentional pun). Please come up with either a technical paper on how cables can sound different or a proper DBT that can be repeated with high reliability.
Until then, it's innocent until proven guilty. No differences until differences are proven.
And to finish, I know there are many here who are going to fire an overhead smash, trying to put the ball into my court. I can hear it now. Why don't you prove it Mike? Prove to me there are no differences. Well, that's called shifting the burden of proof. It doesn't work in court and it doesn't work here, either.
There's nothing wrong with someone believing in something that isn't proven. That takes faith. I do it myself. But cable differences isn't one of them. |
| No, I'm still on vacation, but the Champion of Truth never rests | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 2:44 AM | | b In the case of wires, strong evidence is no evidence. Since wires have been around awhile, and even exotic wires have been with us for over 20 years, you'd think that proof of their benefit would be on the table by now.
Thats pure speculation and you know it. You yourself have said that lack of evidence of something is not evidence that something doesnt exist. You even quoted a Latin phrase which I cant remember.
b My case has already been made. I have a physics and engineering background, which unfortunately is most times difficult to work into the proceedings.
It may be difficult to work into the proceedings, but that wont stop you from trying. Your background may be of great interest to you (you mention it so frequently), but it is proof of nothing.
b And there a plenty of null blind test results, including my own.
Mike, are you intentionally engaging in a concerted campaign of misinformation? There are almost no reported audio cable DBTs, and there are no peer-reviewed reports. At best, there are a few reported tests conducted by amateurs using limited number of trials (remember the Leventhal issue which you have refused to address). This blatant misstatement of fact demonstrates clearly to me your strong bias and lack of objectivity on this question.
b Until then, it's innocent until proven guilty.
In law, theres no such thing as innocent until proven guilty. In criminal cases, there is a presumption of innocence that the state must overcome with clear and convincing evidence. Simply because an accused is presumed innocent doesnt mean that he is in fact innocent.
b The ball's in your court (unitentional pun). Please come up with either a technical paper on how cables can sound different or a proper DBT that can be repeated with high reliability.
Im making no claim, so why are you asking me to produce technical papers, etc. Im simply asking you to back up your claim of strong evidence to the contrary. You clearly have failed to produce one shred of evidence to support your claim.
b There's nothing wrong with someone believing in something that isn't proven. That takes faith.
Your condescension is duly noted. Just out of curiosity, which particular belief of mine are you dispensing papal exculpation for my entertaining? |
| Dear Champion of Truth... | MonstrousMike
Jun 18, 2002 7:37 AM | | Let's keep this simple shall we?
<<<< In law, there's no such thing as innocent until proven guilty. In criminal cases, there is a presumption of innocence that the state must overcome with clear and convincing evidence. Simply because an accused is presumed innocent doesn't mean that he is in fact innocent. >>>>
Absolutely correct, counsellor. In the case of <b> Cable Differences versus The State of Arizona</b>, as foreman of the jury, we return the verdict of not guilty based on a lack of evidence.
Judge Judy: Mr Tower, you have every right to appeal when you can produce some evidence to support your case.
MonstrousMike: Well, cables may make a difference, but you haven't proven it yet. |
| Dear Champion of Truth... | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 8:26 AM | | b MonstrousMike: Well, cables may make a difference, but you haven't proven it yet.
Hopefully you know by now that I don't disagree with this. As I have said in a thread below, I only ask that the "provable claim" standard be applied uniformily, regardless of who is making a claim or dispensing advice.
Would you expect any less from the "Champion of Truth"?
Hey, what do you think of the moniker "TruthChampion"? |
| Hey, what do you think of the moniker "TruthChampion"? | FLZapped
Jun 20, 2002 8:18 AM | | Where is my file, my fangs need a touch-up. . . .
-Bruce |
| Why not just "PCT"? (nt) | FLZapped
Jun 22, 2002 1:11 PM | | |
| Why not just "PCT"? (nt) | pctower
Jun 22, 2002 3:06 PM | | Well, that looks real good to me, but the truth is I'm just to sentimental to give up "pctower", even if it is puny. |
| Heh, heh, it's okay by me! (nt) | FLZapped
Jun 23, 2002 3:35 AM | | |
| Hi Ho the Merrio | FLZapped
Jun 16, 2002 1:34 PM | | ..a trolling we go! -Bruce |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | HYFI
Jun 17, 2002 9:05 AM | | Welcome to the audio world. As much as your mind can convince you that you do hear something (open minded) it can also convince you that you can't hear it(closed minded)even if it exists. Naysayers must spend time each day talking themselves out of being open minded.
Other than that I like your post. Not all cables sound the same with a set of components and some people just can't or don't want to hear differences even if they do exist. I gained a whole different sound from my system recently, not by buying new cables but by swapping 2 sets of different price and construction cables by the same manufacturer. I expected to hear nothing or better yet, worse sound. I was actively trying to convice myself that they would sound the same. They didn't. The interconnect swap effected the sound on 3 radically different sets of speakers in 3 different rooms. 1 set being $139 outdoor speaks under the patio.
Hopefully when you get the money you will be able to get some gear that these changes will be audible with and join in all the fun.
Party on! |
| Perhaps you got this thing backwards.... | MonstrousMike
Jun 17, 2002 12:23 PM | | <<<< As much as your mind can convince you that you do hear something (open minded) it can also convince you that you can't hear it(closed minded)even if it exists. >>>>
As much as your words may be true in this sentence, your insertion of the bracketed comments may be out of place.
How about this:
As much as your mind can convince you that you do hear something and nobody is going to tell you differently (closed minded), it may also be possible that your perceptions failed you and there really was no difference (open minded). |
| How about this? | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 2:50 AM | | "As much as one's mind can convince him that he does hear something, it can also convince him that he can't hear it even if it exists."
Wouldn't it be nice if we could all maintain an open mind, and tolerance of other's views, until a reasonable number of statistically reliable, peer-reviewed DBTs can be performed. |
| If you keep telling yourself, it can't , it won't, it doesn't... | HYFI
Jun 18, 2002 3:12 AM | | that is closed minded. However if you were to say it may, it is possible but i have not heard it myself, that is open minded. |
| For HYFI and pctower... | MonstrousMike
Jun 18, 2002 7:40 AM | | Please point out where I have concluded, beyond a reasonable doubt, that wires do not make a difference.
They absolutely can make a difference, I have heard it. Please point out where I have closed this case (and my mind, for that matter).
Where have I stated this as a fact, beyond reproach? I haven't. I've speculated and opinionated. That's all. |
| For HYFI and pctower... | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 8:33 AM | | Just concerned that with the phrase "strong evidence to the contrary", you might be lapsing into the evil ranks of the Thought Police. |
| For HYFI and pctower... | MonstrousMike
Jun 18, 2002 10:26 AM | | <<<< "strong evidence to the contrary" >>>>
Are those my words? Perhaps they would read better like this: "strong evidence (in my own mind) to the contrary".
And as a side note. I firmly believe that to be in the Thought Police, one first needs to learn to police one's own thoughts.
And if that gives you a headache, then perhaps you should stick to Thought Police car mechanic or Thought Police administrative assistant. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | mtrycrafts
Jun 17, 2002 8:59 PM | | b something (open minded) it can also convince you that you can't hear it(closed minded
You are still confused. Need medical help fast as your condition is not getting better.
b even if it exists.
Prove it, please. Why can't you?
b open minded
"On the otherhand, if you are open to the point of gullibility, and have not an ounce of skeptical sense in you,then you cannot distinguis useful ideas from the worthless ones. If all ideas have equal validity then you are lost, because then, it seems to me, no ideas have any validity at all." Carle Sagan, Pasadena, 1987
b even if they do exist.
You keep claiming this, yet you have zero evidence. Why?
b The interconnect swap effected the sound on 3 radically different sets of speakers in 3 different rooms. 1 set being $139 outdoor speaks under the patio.
Just speculation and unreliable observation. You wanted to hear, even if there isn't anything to hear, and you did. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 3:02 AM | | In the truest Saganian sense, I remain skeptical of the many unsupported claims that naysayers such as MonstrousMike make. I also remain skeptical about the unqualified cable buying advice you dispense to newcomers, given as if your advice was not subject to question or controversy.
It is truly fascinating for me to observe how many naysayers love to shroud themselves in the cloak of scientific superiority (mtry - this comment is expressly not directed at you), while demonstrating almost complete disregard of the basic concepts of the scientific method. At least the unsupported claims of many yeasayers appear to germinate out of a lack of knowledge of the scientific method. What is the naysayers excuse? |
| The one thing that i do imagine is | HYFI
Jun 18, 2002 3:09 AM | | Dr Marty! Notice how he realy does not exist in my life. Stop wasting your typing. |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | A
Jun 17, 2002 10:25 AM | | Please look at the following link:
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef875dd">A "Explanation of Double Blind Test" 3/30/02 2:46pm</a>
It explains why you might want to reconsider your take on double blind tests (which is something very different from taking measurements of the equipment). |
| re: My first opinion on cables and hi fi. | JoeW
Jun 17, 2002 9:03 PM | | You're on the right track, dewd. Have you opened up that vintage Sanyo? Is it tubed? If so, replace the output tubes, then the coupling caps when you're comforatble doing so. The age of a component is not a measure of the quality of it's design. A 40 year old Dyna St70 will still slay most anything you can walk away with from CircuitCity et al, when it comes to 2 channel audio amps. Obviously, a 40 YO tube amp will need some attention. So what? I enjoy the hobby a lot more than the shopping.
Is the Dynaco SOTA? Of course not. It's pretty good. I mention it because its as easily obtainable as goods from CircuitCity. |
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