|   Basic questions about power cords | Dullgrin
Jun 16, 2002 1:05 PM | | Been looking at power cords lately. Curious to test for myself to see if they make a difference in my system. BUT I don't really know much about power, and I'm not able to find any good articles on-line. I can find plenty about power conditioning and surge suppression but not about something even more basic:
What are IECs and 15A/20A ratings and do I need to worry about compatibility with my components?
Based on what I know now, I'm willing to try an AudioPrism Foundation III for filtering and protection, and run new cables to my amp (BAT VK-200) and CDP (Theta Miles). Also, I'd need to run a longer cord from the wall to the AudioPrism itself, since the nearest outlet is about 12' from my equipment. Any (helpful) suggestions on what to try and what types of IECs to look for?
So I come to the folks at AudioReview. Any help is appreciated.
Regards. |
| Stop the insanity - and keep your hard earned in your pocket | woodman
Jun 16, 2002 4:27 PM | | I have to assume that you're sincere in this post, although this particular board is often overrun by "trolls", especially over the last 6 months or so.
Based upon my extensive experience working with consumer electronics, I can tell you that the promotion of power cords as something that can influence the sound of a system is a massive HOAX! There is simply no way that the cord that brings raw electricity into a component can have any direct bearing on how that component performs ... period.
A very good analogy would be the hose that transports gasoline from the pump into the gas tank of your car. Neither the material that hose is made of, or its physical design will have any effect whatsoever on how your car performs.
If one had a problem with "interference" being picked up by an unshielded power cord, AND the power supply of the component failed to filter it out (a VERY unlikely scenario IMO), then and only then could a shielded power cord prove to be beneficial. Yet that would still not qualify as improving the basic sonics of the amp or system. That would remain unchanged, leaving only the elimination of unwanted interference as the only "improvement".
Still, you'll find people at forums such as this swearing up and down that some (expensive usually) power cord has created sonic miracles in the sound of their system or the look of the images on their TV. This is completely impossible despite their testimony to the contrary.
And dat's da troot
woodman |
| Stop the insanity - and keep your hard earned in your pocket | chronot4242
Jun 16, 2002 5:47 PM | | buying high dollar power cords is like having a composite video cable carry a picture....then converting it to go through component cables......ok so maybe this wasn't the most basic analogy.....but it works.....your cables signal passing ability is only as good as its weakest link.....in other words.....while you may have a great power cord going to your component from the wall.....what about the power cords in the wall? you'd have to rewire your house altogether and you still probably won't notice a difference. |
| to chronot4242 | Dullgrin
Jun 16, 2002 9:31 PM | | Maybe I understand your argument against. But let me try this: if I install a water filter on my faucet, I don't care about the quality of the water nor even the pipes that come before it. I only care about what's 'downstream', namely the quality of the water that comes from the filter. Isn't the situation similar with a power conditioner? Don't I care about the cords between the filter and the components? This is what I'm willing to experiment with. You'll notice after all I did say 'try' in my original post. Let me tell you why: I've noticed a difference in the quality of speaker cables and interconnects, the rants of mtry and warren warren notwithstanding. I'm willing to experiment with power cords as well. When my refrigerator kicks on the lights in my apartment dim, even though they're not on the same circuit (even if they were it wouldn't matter, one light is currently running from the outlet my stereo equipment is attached to, it dims and brightens with fluctuations in draw). Won't this have an effect on the current feeding my stereo? Won't a power conditioner/surge suppressor at least have some evening effect? |
| Reality, but nobody likes it | Spiky
Jun 17, 2002 7:28 AM | | > if I install a water filter on my faucet, I don't care about the quality of the water nor even the pipes that come before it. I only care about what's 'downstream', namely the quality of the water that comes from the filter. Isn't the situation similar with a power conditioner? Don't I care about the cords between the filter and the components?
But, the water filter (or power conditioner) needs to be useful. If the water coming into your house is 100% pure, there is no need for the filter. If your power is good, you don't need a filter. BUT, if you have a filter, everything after the filter shouldn't matter unless it does something to alter the electricity. Doubtful that properly designed cords would do this.
Woodman's analagy below is also valid, although his assumptions are incomplete.
> A very good analogy would be the hose that transports gasoline from the pump into the gas tank of your car. Neither the material that hose is made of, or its physical design will have any effect whatsoever on how your car performs.
A beat-up old hose could allow pieces of itself into the gas stream. This may just have an effect on the fuel pump. Also, if there is anything in the gas already, like water, the hose will not protect your car. (not that it's designed to, so in this case this analogy doesn't help)
Personally, I use surge protectors with a bit of conditioning (not much) to help protect my equipment from surges and other power fluctuations. The power supply in the equipment does this, but I like adding more help. I suppose I could get rid of those protectors and instead get several power cords that would do the same thing. Kinda pricey though, for no real benefit. I've spent a couple hundred to outfit 4 rooms in my house with protection. Why spend thousands for the same thing?
> When my refrigerator kicks on, Won't this have an effect on the current feeding my stereo? Won't a power conditioner/surge suppressor at least have some evening effect?
IMO, yes. Protect your equipment. Onkyo, Krell, Sunfire, Sony, etc. did not make the power supplies to protect against serious fluctuations. Regardless of what certain people say.
Some (most?) expensive power cords are just cords, not including any protection. I don't see how these can really help. Filters are different. If I had a known problem, I'd want something more than an expensive cord to fix it. |
| What's incomplete, Spiky? | woodman
Jun 17, 2002 7:54 PM | | "A beat-up old hose could allow pieces of itself into the gas stream. This may just have an effect on the fuel pump."
That's true, but in this case the hose would have to be considered "defective" wouldn't it? Therefore it should be replaced, just as a defective power cord should be replaced. However, if the gasoline hose is NOT defective, then the analogy is as good as anything I've ever heard of ... it merely supplies a raw material to the car, which then makes use of it. Exactly the same with a power cord which supplies raw A-C power to an electronic component. But it's the power supply within that component which is responsible for the D-C power which all of the circuits use. The power cord CANNOT have any effect on this D-C power whatsoever.
woodman |
| Most things on message boards | Spiky
Jun 18, 2002 5:47 AM | | Naysayers never allow for problems. On this board your world is all rosy with cheap wire (or analogies to it) perfectly performing in all audio connections, regardless of the environment. (with this attitude, I'd stay away from that cheap gas station if I were you)
I've been told repeatedly that bundled wires could not have defects, either OOTB or after a couple years. (apparently THOSE cable companies are honest and forthright and don't make any mistakes with their $.05 cables) I've been told oxidation doesn't happen. (do most of you live in Arizona?) I've been told power SHOULDN'T fluctuate. (wow, I'll throw a note to that effect in my next payment, should clear everything up) Or if the power fluctuates, the power supply inside ANY level of electronics should be able to fully compensate, short of lightning strikes. (see my 2nd problem added to your gas analogy) Etc.
So I pointed out 2 possible problems to add to your analogy. Translate that into PC or IC issues for further comparison.
BTW, I said "Reality, but nobody likes it". By saying nobody I'm including both naysayers and yeasayers. Perhaps you noticed that I mostly agreed with you, but added real-world issues. |
| to chronot4242 | mtrycrafts
Jun 17, 2002 8:48 PM | | b Don't I care about the cords between the filter and the components?
But now you are putting this filter in front of another filter. No need, absolutely none.
b When my refrigerator kicks on the lights in my apartment dim,
That is not because of the power cord on the ref.
b I've noticed a difference in the quality of speaker cables and interconnects, the rants of mtry and warren warren notwithstanding.
That is because you didn't take notes. You used that unreliable sighted listening. So your observations are unreliable, worthless.
b ). Won't this have an effect on the current feeding my stereo?
Nope, unless you have deficient power panels, or, you may have a defective connection someplace in th ehouse.
b Won't a power conditioner/surge suppressor at least have some evening effect?
Not that is audible. |
| to chronot4242 | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 3:06 AM | | b Not that is audible.
I missed that part of the reported, peer-reviewed part of the audio DBT literature. I know you have it at your finger tips. Could you please direct me? Thanks |
| to chronot4242 | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 10:08 PM | | I must have missed it, but if you have the evidence for a difference, please share it with all, thanks.
Oh, Home Theater, a yeasayer rag couldn't hear anything from these either, so why bother when a yeasayer cannot. |
| to mtry | Spiky
Jun 18, 2002 5:57 AM | | > I've noticed a difference in the quality of speaker cables and interconnects, the rants of mtry and warren warren notwithstanding.
> That is because you didn't take notes. You used that unreliable sighted listening. So your observations are unreliable, worthless.
Tsk, tsk, mtry. He didn't say audible quality, just quality. Surely there can be sighted comparisons of QC for cables? Or did you let that "rants of mtry" line cloud your vision? |
| to mtry | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 10:11 PM | | b Surely there can be sighted comparisons of QC for cables? Or did you let that "rants of mtry" line cloud your vision?
Well, since I don't discuss issues of quality or challage them, and he did bring me up by name, he only had one issue in mind, or why mention me. |
| I do not rant! | Warren Warren
Jun 18, 2002 5:20 PM | | Rave a little, maybe, but not rant! Besides, I agree with you on the benefits of IC's and speaker cables. Just not power cords. Come on, haven't you ever opened a piece of your audio gear? Have you traced out any of the wires? if you look at where the power cord comes in, the first thing you will find tied to the wires is a fuse. Look at how small the fuse is. Do you really think a power cord can affect the sound at that point? If you are really concerned about how power effects sound in your gear, you could always invest in larger capacitors for your P/S.
WW |
| Was that a rant I just heard? | TomN
Jun 19, 2002 6:36 AM | | What defines the crossover point from Rave to Rant?
Tom N.
(who never rants, unless required) |
| Sorry, I meant to say 'woodman' in that post. My apologies. -nt- | Dullgrin
Jun 19, 2002 7:56 AM | | |
| to chronot4242 | piece-it pete
Jun 21, 2002 8:30 AM | | Hello Dullgrin!
What chronot4242 said about having to re-wire your house is true. A conditioner/suppressor my do a little, but only with what it receives from the wall.
I've often thought about putting in 20 amp dedicated circuits (direct from the fusebox) in for 1)Amp 2)TV 3)& 4) for everything else in my system.
The fridge dimming the lights probably mean your main fusebox isn't big enough. One could add an additional box running directly off the main power feed & run the fridge (or your A/V) with it.
Pete
Pete |
| to woodman: how many ARers does it take to be helpful? | Dullgrin
Jun 16, 2002 9:48 PM | | Man: why is everybody so afraid of trolls? In my experience they bring a perspective to this discussion board that is refreshing, especially compared with the likes of yourself who resort to condecension rather than assistance. People like myself come here to learn. We ask questions because we want to learn about a common hobby. Sometimes in the process of learning we sound ignorant. If that makes me a troll, so be it.
Sometimes I receive good advice here. That's why I've kept coming back. But more often than not I, and others it seems, receive some form of audio-world McCarthyism from people who haven't even read everything I've written before jumping to their 'invasion of the pinkos' conclusion. 'Oh the trolls are coming!' I'd rather keep company with the person impersonating as Jameson Davenport Briggs any day. He at least is aware of how f@#&ed up this board is.
So long, folks. I'll learn on my own. |
| I think you'd better read Woodman's post again. | Dick Hertz
Jun 17, 2002 6:06 AM | | Sorry, but I don't see any condescending tone in his post. Even though he thought the post MIGHT be a troll, he answered it in a fair and helpful way. Woodman's been posting here a long time. Don't recall seeing him degrade anyone. I think you're being a little too sensitive. |
| I'm sure glad that some people know how to read | woodman
Jun 17, 2002 7:21 AM | | Dick:
Thanks for the kind (and succinct) words.
It's been said that people read what they want to read, hear what they want to hear, etc. Here is a good example of that in action.
woodman |
| I'm sure glad that some people know how to read | pctower
Jun 17, 2002 12:12 PM | | I don't particularly agree with your statements about power cords and based on his follow-on I don't think the poster was a troll.
But I'm glad to see someone else has noticed what seems to be a series of strange posts that seem designed only to stir up trouble.
BTW, everyone, I'm finishing up my stay on Cape Cod after a three day jaunt to Chicago. Unfortunately, have been sick most of the vacation, but picked up some antibiotics in Chicago and feel like a new man. Don't know what I've had because I'm almost never sick.
Today the weather is perfect and the view of the pond spectacular. No TV or other noise-producing gear in the house - maybe when I get home on Thursday, I'll remove all the cables from my system so I can reproduce the silence. |
| "I think you're being a little too sensitive." | markw
Jun 18, 2002 2:30 AM | | Unless, of course, it was a troll and Woody nailed him.
I find oi incredlous that he would read only the first paragraph and totally ignore the rest before responding. |
| to woodman: how many ARers does it take to be helpful? | skeptic
Jun 18, 2002 4:16 AM | | Dullgrin;
You said: "People like myself come here to learn. We ask questions because we want to learn about a common hobby. Sometimes in the process of learning we sound ignorant."
If you really want to learn, I will educate you. I am well qualified. I am an electrical engineer who has designed and built power distribution systems for large corporations for over thirty years. This includes systems for some of the most advanced and sensitive scientific equipment in the world with far tougher demands than any home audio equipment. The advice Woodman has give you is correct. But I don't like using analogies because they are imprecise and break down on close examination. So I will explain it to you this way. The network of electrical wires, transformers, and other distribution equipment between the source of power at the power company and your audio system is vast and complex. The few feet of wire between your equipment and your wall outlet plays only a very small role in this network. It is true that a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and there can be bottlenecks to the proper flow of electricity but the power cord that came with your equipment isn't one of them. It is very well suited for its funtion. If you want to replace it with a more expensive one because it makes you feel better,go ahead but you won't gain anything except a debt for the cost of it. There will be no improvement in the performance of your audio system. If you really have a problem with the quality of power coming into your house, a new power cord won't solve it. These problems usually are expensive to fix and require expert knowledge to identify the source and effect a real cure. As for power cords, it's your money. Waste it if you like, no one can stop you from doing that. Be warned of one thing though. Do it yourself home made power cords are very dangerous. Don't try it. What you don't know can kill you. |
| The power cord does not power your amp!! | Bobby Blacklight
Jun 17, 2002 6:07 PM | | The power supply circuitry does. The AC gets transformed through a step down tranformer for SS, rectified, filtered and then regulated. There is an awful lot done internally before it gets to the voltage buss that actually powers the electronics. The whole idea is to get as close to a battery as you can get with enough power reserves. I don't see what effect an AC power cord will have on the filtered DC that actually powers the unit. |
| You're absolutely correct, sir | woodman
Jun 17, 2002 7:40 PM | | This whole concept seems to be lost on the wire worshippers however. I've posted time and time again here that a power cord CANNOT affect the sound of a system ... period. Yet I usually get responses such as:
"well, you must be deaf 'cause I hear the difference!"
Well, the sad part of the story is that they actually DO hear sonic improvement! But rather than the power cord itself being responsible for the change, it's their own personal ABEs (Attitudes, Beliefs, & Expectations) that are the reason that they hear what they do! How sad. If they only realized what's actually going on, just think of all the money they could avoid spending. Money that could be better spent elsewhere - on something that could actually provide some real bonafide benefit as opposed to a power cord that cannot do anything whatsoever.
woodman |
| You're absolutely correct, sir | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 3:14 AM | | b Well, the sad part of the story is that they actually DO hear sonic improvement! But rather than the power cord itself being responsible for the change, it's their own personal ABEs (Attitudes, Beliefs, & Expectations) that are the reason that they hear what they do! How sad. If they only realized what's actually going on, just think of all the money they could avoid spending. Money that could be better spent elsewhere - on something that could actually provide some real bonafide benefit as opposed to a power cord that cannot do anything whatsoever.
Do you have peer-reviewed, statistically reliable, DBTs to support these statements?
b How sad.
As with MM, your condescension is duly noted. It must be exhilarating to be blessed with the moral and intellectual superiority that you naysayers enjoy. |
| No - I have more than 50 years of experience WORKING with | woodman
Jun 18, 2002 6:57 AM | | electronic products to support my statements.
Furthermore, I profess NO moral or intellectual superiority to anyone. I post here in a sincere effort to help others understand complex electronic issues and products. If you find anything I have to say condescending, that's your problem - not mine.
woodman
P.S. You said earlier in this thread that you didn't agree with my POV about power cords. Do you have ANYTHING to offer in support of that position other than: "well, I heard a difference myself" ? That, as you've been told countless times, means only that you have an attitude and beliefs that create that sensory experience for you. Believe it or don't ... it's true, nonetheless. |
| No - I have more than 50 years of experience WORKING with | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 8:17 AM | | I really didn't want to get in an argument about power cords, because, while I believe I hear a difference and base my personal decisions on my experience, I make no claim that my experiences are due to anything other than placebo effect, because I have never subjected them to blind testing.
As for your 50 years (which certainly is impressive), others such as Jon Risch and John Curl (neither of whom I'm here to defend) make claims based on their experience and are roundly derided by the naysayers for making unsubstantiated claims. All I'm asking for is that the same standards of "provable claims" be applied to the naysayers when they make claims.
Note, I have repeatedly said I'm not asking naysayers to prove a negative. I only ask that when naysayers choose to go beyond pointing out there is no verified scientific data to substantiate audible differences in cables that they also be subjected to the "provable claims" standard.
I do find it interesting that almost always when I ask a naysayer to support a claim he has made, the typical response is to come back and ask me to prove claims which I have never made. In my experience, many naysayers are so convinced of their intellectual invincibility they cannot imagine that anyone other than a flat-earther would dare to question them.
Finally, I did find your tone condescending and if my observation is a problem for anyone, you are certainly correct that it is my problem. I can assure you that my observation did not occupy my mind beyond the mouse click of my previous post. However, personally, when someone makes an observation about my statements or behavior, I try to remain objective enough to take a fair look at how I'm projecting myself to others to determine if I might be projecting myself in ways I do not intend. Of course, my professional experience is only a little over 30 years so I'm sure I may not have everything quite figured out yet (sarcasm intended).
b That, as you've been told countless times, means only that you have an attitude and beliefs that create that sensory experience for you. Believe it or don't ... it's true, nonetheless.
For what its worth, and Im not trying to be sarcastic, I find that unsubstantiated, absolutist, statement both extremely arrogant and dogmatic. Believe me I wont loose any sleep over it. However, I also will give your opinions little respect, as their tone suggests to me that you opinions are based more on bias than anything beneficial you may have learned from your 50 years of experience. |
| No - I have more than 50 years of experience WORKING with | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 10:18 PM | | b others such as Jon Risch and John Curl (neither of whom I'm here to defend) make claims based on their experience and are roundly derided by the naysayers for making unsubstantiated claims
While the two mentioned make unsubstantiated claims, they do have th eburden of proof. Simple. No evidence exists that woodman is wrong. |
| The power cord does not power your amp!! | sam9
Jun 21, 2002 2:11 PM | | Yes. --- AND even if a power cord could make difference, expensive high-end equipment are the least likely components to need it. |
| My apologies and more | Dullgrin
Jun 18, 2002 11:02 AM | | Really, I didn't mean to be divisive. I did not seed a question just to see what kind of feud I could fire up. I admit I overreacted to woodman, and for that I apologize. Please note that I'm apologizing for overreacting, not professing that anyone's opinions here are correct or incorrect. I still find worthy of criticism a categorical response to a question I didn't ask. I did not ask whether I should use power conditioners and power cords. I asked what I should look for so that I can experiment on my own. Decide for myself. Try (as in trial run) not mortgage the house. Learn the old fashioned way. What's the old saw about contempt prior to investigation?
I asked a genuine question. What are IECs? What are 15amp and 20 amp designations? I guess the question really is a stupid one, so stupid only a troll could ask it. So stupid that it doesn't need to be answered. How would I know without asking it? I'm at the beginning of my 50 years experience in high end audio.
Please, my regards. |
| Wow | pctower
Jun 18, 2002 1:20 PM | | I guess we all got so caught up in our own self-righteousness that we ignored your very legitimate questions. I apologize.
First, IEC connectors are standard 3-prong connectors found on most high-end equipment that permits use of after-market power cables. The equipment has the male plug and the power cord has the female plug. Same arrangement as is used on desk-top PCs. IEC plugs began to appear on all types of high end equipment when the manufacturers discovered that many of their customers believed that after-market power cords could improve sonic performance (more on that later).
The standard IEC plug is a 15 amp plug with three thin cylindrical prongs (like on PCs). 20 amp connectors have three parallel blade prongs. Just because a power cord has a 20 amp female plug on it doesnt necessarily mean the cord itself is rated for 20 amps. Some amp manufacturers such as Jeff Rowland believe the 20 amp connector provides an inherently tighter connection and therefore put 20 amp male connectors on some of their amps, which require a 20 amp female connector on the power cord. For example, the power cords I use on my Rowland mono-blocks have 20 amp female connectors so they will fit the amps, but the cords themselves are only rated at 15 amps.
If you have ever seen a 20 amp wall socket, you will know that it looks different than a 15 amp plug. It has a slot running perpendicular to one of the vertical slots. A 15 amp male plug will plug into a 20 amp wall socket, but a 20 amp male plug will not plug into a 15 amp female wall socket. So if a power cord is truly rated for 20 amps, it should have 20 amp connectors at both ends.
Power cords are the most controversial of all cables when it comes to whether different power cables can possibly cause any sonic differences that are audible. It seems particularly difficult for those who claim sonic differences between power cables to offer theoretical explanations for such differences that pass the smell test.
Trying different power cables is like trying any other cable in your system. You try different cables and determine if there are any differences and if there are, which sounds better.
Most audiophiles make these comparisons knowing each time which cable they are listening to. As the naysayers correctly point out here, this type of comparison cannot possibly eliminate such factors as the placebo effect as influencing perceptions of differences. To minimize such factors external to true, audible sonic differences, blind testing is the preferred approach.
Hope this helps a little. |
| Got it! Thanks! | Dullgrin
Jun 18, 2002 10:49 PM | | Thank you pctower. This is precisely what I was looking for, simple as it may be. What a ride!
Again, my thanks. It's this sort of help I come to AR for. |
| My apologies and more | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 10:21 PM | | b Learn the old fashioned way.
Ah, must try everything for yourself. Place your hand on a burner, jump off tall buildings, reinvent the wheel, kick a concrete football, etc. I consider what knowledge already exists, not reinvent what is already known. |
| Learning | Spiky
Jun 20, 2002 6:28 AM | | So, reading is the only path to knowledge? Otherwise you get hurt??
Thank god some people don't think as you do, mtry. Otherwise our civilization would collapse tomorrow. I don't know who you are, but you damn well better not be teaching any children anything. |
| re: Basic questions about power cords | audioengr
Jun 18, 2002 3:27 PM | | There are a few articles on power cords, conditioners etc. in the White-papers and Audio FAQ pages of my website:
http://www.empiricalaudio.com
I am a strong believer in low-inductance power cords, particularly for power amps. |
| Low inductance power cords.... | MonstrousMike
Jun 18, 2002 6:46 PM | | I'm certainly glad that you espouse at least .0005% of the circuit path to be low inductance. I couldn't handle anything less.
Perhaps if you lowered the inductance even further, we could disregard the rest of the power grid. |
| re: Basic questions about power cords | TomN
Jun 19, 2002 6:43 AM | | I was not able to find any "White Papers" on your web site. perhaps you are usign the term incorrectly?
Tom N. |
| SHILL ALERT! | FLZapped
Jun 20, 2002 8:43 AM | | [I am a strong believer in low-inductance power cords, particularly for power amps.]
I would be too if I had a pecuniary interest in them as you do!
-Bruce |
| re: Basic questions about power cords | sam9
Jun 21, 2002 1:58 PM | | IEC's are the type receptacle that detachable cords plug into just like you PC. They derive, I think, from the early days of PCs. I don't know of any user advantage to them except that the box (whether a PC or an audio component) is less awkward to move around without the cord dangling.
Most audio equipment has RF filtering designed into the the power supply already. The means are not rocket science. For the price you paid for the units you mention, you have a right to feel ripped off if it doesn't have filtration. Thus, adding filtration to a power cord seems to be redundant. Ironically, if there is a benefit from such external filtration it would more likely be found if you are using cheap, poorly made equipment rather the good quality stuff.
As protection against lightening strikes in the neighborhood, a good computer power strip/surge protector ought to do the job.
If you are concerned about voltage drops, voltage instability from the power company, etc. - no cable is likely to help. The only for sure solution is very expensive. That would be regeneration, where the public AC is used to charge a large battery pack and then the battery pack is used to drive an inverter (gadget that turns DC inro AC). We are talking 4-digits here, at least. Even without this, it is not clear that the condition being adressed results in audio degredation that you would notice. |
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