|   This is for everyone who thinks like HYFI.... | MonstrousMike
Jun 19, 2002 7:20 AM | | <<<< ...why do you hang here? >>>>
I happen to have a lot of experience with cabling and other technical aspects of home audio and home theatre.
I'd like to think I have given a lot of people help with some facts as well as my opinions on various topics.
I'm not trying to save anyone from anything, I'm trying to inform people as best I can. If you don't want my advice on anything just because I disagree with the benefits of exotic cabling, that's your prerogative. If everyone had that attitude, then yes, I would not be here.
I stand behind every single post I have made at this forum.
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef8c563/0">MonstrousMike "Maximum length for S-Video and RCA cables?" 6/19/02 7:49am</a>
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef8c2eb/4">MonstrousMike "Super Nova III Glass Toslink Digital Cable. Glass-vs-plastic" 6/16/02 11:31am</a>
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef8c3cf/0">MonstrousMike "Recommendations on for a pair of analog cables." 6/17/02 9:25am</a>
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef8c45a/1">MonstrousMike "Could I use a good 75ohm video cable for digital coax?" 6/18/02 8:48am</a>
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef8c12f/0">MonstrousMike "Dr. Floyd Toole (cont'd.)" 6/14/02 2:14pm</a>
MonstrousMike "Bandwith for video switching?" 6/17/02 1:49pm |
| You're a brave man. | pctower
Jun 19, 2002 8:32 AM | | b I stand behind every single post I have made at this forum.
I usually try and put as much distance as possible between me and my posts. |
| re: This is for everyone who thinks like HYFI.... | HYFI
Jun 19, 2002 9:08 AM | | I was not atacking you. I just get tired of the same 5 guys telling everyone that we are all imagining everything. I am educated (although my comunication skills are lacking). I am skeptical about lots of things including preachers who won't admit they own a bible. Won't share thier real life experiences. I am far from deaf or gullible. when I make a change to my system whether it be cables or granite blocks under the speakers, and someone who is used to the sound comes home and knows nothing of it but asks why such and such sounds different, we are both not imagining the same thing.
I know what I heard and you or your gang of 5 are not going to change that ever. |
| Who is the gang of 5? | Norm Strong
Jun 19, 2002 9:27 AM | | Am I one of them? |
| Yo, NORM, take off your colors, this here's a respectible joint | Richard Greene
Jun 21, 2002 11:05 AM | | Norm Strong -- audio gang member extraordinaire
Keep this up and you'll soon be doin' time ...
or you'll be dead. There's no future in audio gangs.
It's a dead-end street where you live large ...
and die young. |
| Yes, Norm, repent, repent, before it's too late (nt). | pctower
Jun 21, 2002 2:06 PM | | NT |
| re: This is for everyone who thinks like HYFI.... | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 9:47 PM | | b telling everyone that we are all imagining everything
Of course you ar enot imagining 'everything.' Is that what you imagine we say to you?
b I am skeptical about lots of things including preachers who won't admit they own a bible.
Now why would they need one? Perhaps they read someone elses. Again, it is irrelevant, and you still don't get it. Why?
b Won't share thier real life experiences.
Irrelevant. After all, it is your claims that are beoing challanged, so my experiences have nothing to do with your claims.
b I am far from deaf or gullible.
Just near.
b and someone who is used to the sound comes home and knows nothing of it but asks why such and such sounds different, we are both not imagining the same thing.
Ah, the famous cause, so it must be the effect. LOL. Yes, imagination is an answer you just cannot accept. That is a great possibility, yet you reject it based on bogus experiences. |
| re: This is for everyone who thinks like HYFI.... | JoeW
Jun 19, 2002 8:20 PM | | Contrary to popular naysayer thought, the majority of us want sensible cables at a sensible cost. Rat shack cables - often the first recommendation of the naysayer - are moronic. The plugs are so tight as to be misengineered.
Did I say 'plugs'? Forgive me. The ground element is mis-sized. The hot is pretty near average, near as I can tell.
An average hot, with a misengineered ground is not a very sensible cable. And, we haven't even examined the actual cable.
Let me ask you something, point blank. Have you any experience with Jon Risch's IC recipes? If yes, I would like to read your thoughts. If no, I respectfully submit there is a hole in your experience you should investigate.
These are not exotic cables made from unobtanium. They are sensible cables made from easily obtainable high quality parts.
I'd like to see at least one naysayer try these, before they load up for bear(or, in some cases, bigfoot) again.
I'm not holding my breath. |
| Maybe there's hole in my head.... | MonstrousMike
Jun 19, 2002 8:50 PM | | <<<< unobtanium >>>
Hehehe. That's a good one.
The only thing I have done DIY is tv coax cabling for the various video runs I have in my house. I like the idea of DIY although being somewhat of a skeptic, I would probably use the lower end components or at least mid ones that looked cool. The real benefit I would experience is that I could fit to custom lengths and get rid of the rat's nest behind my stereo cabinet.
I have nothing against sensible quality cables at sensible prices. The big difference for me is that I would not expect any change in the sound other than sheer satisfaction which might make me think everything sounds better. That's why I'm not in a real hurry to go DIY. It will be some project in the future, perhaps even a retirement project when I figure I finally have all the right equipment (i.e. no more major upheavals, overhauls or upgrades).
And since I've been so nice in this post, I can't leave without at least one jab. I have question for you. If you never use OEM cables or Rat Shack cables, how can you appreciate your fancy ones? |
| Maybe there's hole in my head.... | JoeW
Jun 21, 2002 2:27 AM | | >I like the idea of DIY although being somewhat of a skeptic, I would probably use the lower end components or at least mid ones that looked cool. The real benefit I would experience is that I could fit to custom lengths and get rid of the rat's nest behind my stereo cabinet.
I see that as a fringe benefit, but a significant one. This may be the single point where yeahsayers and naysayers agree: Less is better.
>The big difference for me is that I would not expect any change in the sound other than sheer satisfaction which might make me think everything sounds better.
What of the sheer satisfaction that everything actually does sound better? There is no evidence that sonic improvements are hallucinatory. As I've noted 10,000 times by now, there is no hard scientific evidence either way.
>It will be some project in the future, perhaps even a retirement project when I figure I finally have all the right equipment (i.e. no more major upheavals, overhauls or upgrades).
I dont recommend rushing pleasure anymore than postponing it. Everything in it's time.
>If you never use OEM cables or Rat Shack cables, how can you appreciate your fancy ones?
I have used Rat Shackers - thats how I know about the mis-sized grounds. Grunt and twist might be a good name for them. As for OEM's I posted my opinion on how dreadful they are a few months back - that was after moment of self doubt - when I thought maybe I was nuts to want rational cables, and gave these naysayer doohickys a shot. They failed large.
Seriously, Compared with JR's recipes, OEMs are 'Pass the Walkman'
As to the hole in your head, I hope you got more than one. Here's hoping you got 2 ears, 2 eyes, 2 nostrils and 1 mouth
Cheers |
| Maybe there's hole in my head.... | mtrycrafts
Jun 21, 2002 5:40 PM | | b There is no evidence that sonic improvements are hallucinatory. As I've noted 10,000 times by now, there is no hard scientific evidence either way.
Oh, but there is. Just read some of the JOurnals Floyd Toole published. But one has to be able to read first, and understand second.
As to proof, only the proof for differences that count and would have merit. No proof of the negative exists, but you knew that, or should have as that has been pointed out a million times. So, since there is no evidence for positives, there is non yet. When you have one, please post it. |
| Flag on the play | JoeW
Jun 22, 2002 8:16 PM | | >Oh, but there is. Just read some of the JOurnals Floyd Toole published. But one has to be able to read first, and understand second.
Sheesh! I get hammered for being rude, but just give a read to what I have been responding to. Is there a double standard lurking here?
Further evidence of the double standard follows, but it's not worthy of response.
Let me state this very clearly. Calling this poster monkeyboy is no more insulting than what he offered here, and he's been doing it for years.
If you do not like rude and insulting posts, here's the guy you gotta bring in line. End of story. |
| "Calling this poster monkeyboy " | mtrycrafts
Jun 22, 2002 10:34 PM | | Great, Joe. You need to get verbal advantage tapes. Learn the bigger words for a change.
I see you didn't offer anything useful. But that is understandible. |
| re: This is for everyone who thinks like HYFI.... | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 9:50 PM | | b Have you any experience with Jon Risch's IC recipes?
What for? Why should I even consider them?
b If no, I respectfully submit there is a hole in your experience you should investigate.
Wrong. Nothing to investigate.
b or, in some cases, bigfoot)
But it is just another one. |
| What for? Why should I even consider them? | entrope
Jun 20, 2002 8:56 AM | | They might be the cheapest..meeting your #1 criteria for judging wire.
Then again coathangers (not plastic) are even cheaper.
I have made several DIY cables from various recipes and found some very good others not so. But I did "perceive" sonic differences particularly with very thin wire (bad) and with silver plated wire (good). I found the latter to be the equal of many mid priced commercial cables. And they were all less than $20 each mostly because of the price of good (not to tight) RCA connectors.
I am currently using a three wire braid interconnect of 20 guage silver plated pre amp to amp for the mains and Belden 89259 interconnect pre amp to amp center and surrounds. All are DIY and performing wonderfully. And I had fun soldering my fingers. |
| What for? Why should I even consider them? | mtrycrafts
Jun 20, 2002 9:38 PM | | b They might be the cheapest
Hardly approaches $.30/ft, so it is not cheap. Try $2/ft or more, plus labor. My time is not free.
b meeting your #1 criteria for judging wire.
Nope, failed.
b Then again coathangers (not plastic) are even cheaper.
They work for digital, yes, but too much trouble. Rather use cheap video cable.
b I have made several DIY cables from various recipes and found some very good
Very good in what sense? The way they look? construction?
b But I did "perceive" sonic differences
That is very easy to do:)
b And I had fun soldering my fingers.
You need more practice:) |
| by the way | mtrycrafts
Jun 19, 2002 9:53 PM | | b The plugs are so tight as to be misengineered.
A number of years ago someone sent me a cable to try, not RS. Those plugs were tight, not the RS cables. They came apart after the first attempt to pull it off. |
| Thanks for sharing that... | HTguy
Jun 20, 2002 10:40 AM | | ...but someone should have told you that your not supposed to plug them into a vice. BTW, I bet you really know how to yank a cable, getting it off on your first attempt. |
| Thanks for sharing that... | mtrycrafts
Jun 20, 2002 9:40 PM | | b getting it off on your first attempt.
Ah, it didn't come off with the first attempt, that is a problem. It didn't want to budge at all. Should not have pushed it on in the first place. |
| Where is the real JoeW, and what have you done with him? | Warren Warren
Jun 20, 2002 1:32 PM | | Joe, I have to compliment you on a well thought out, humourous, and polite post. I was so used to seeing your frequently emotional, sometimes hostile, and hastily written responses that I almost passed this one over. I hope that you will continue to make posts of this caliber in the future. Keep up the good work!
WW |
| It's not what you think... | StevenSurprenant
Jun 20, 2002 1:29 PM | | It's not that we don't appreciate your viewpoint or respect your knowledge.
The real point is that we hear differences and would like to discuss it with others. However, the problem is that everytime we mention it, certain people keep jumping all over us. They use the same information in each of their posts. I would think by now that they would realize that their argument is not persuasive enough to change our minds. After a while, it becomes irritating.
Even when ways were suggested to prove or disprove their point, it was dismissed. Their attitude was that the proof already existed. We don't believe so and if you or anyone else wants to change our mind, you will have to come up with something we can agree on as proof.
There is no such thing as an expert. The word expert implies that they know all that there is to know about a subject. The fact that experts disagree means that grey areas exist in their knowledge that hasn't been proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt.
In addition to this, the human auditory process and brain comes into effect in this discussion. This is not very well understood at this point in time. There is much discussion happening in this area too.
The point is that naysayers, if they want to prove their point, need to show us different proof. As it now stands, it's all a matter of "Is so"..."Is not"
While your proof makes a great deal of sense, it doesn't explain why people hear the same differences when different wires are used.
And so on... |
| It's not what you think... | mtrycrafts
Jun 21, 2002 5:43 PM | | b The point is that naysayers, if they want to prove their point, need to show us different proof.
Nope, you are mistaken. It is you who needs to prove your claimed differences. Just claiming is not evidence. |
| one more | mtrycrafts
Jun 21, 2002 5:46 PM | | b In addition to this, the human auditory process and brain comes into effect in this discussion. This is not very well understood at this point in time.
Oh, but it is undertood enough to know that your perception is foolable. And enough to knwo that bias control MUST be used for comparisons of audible sounds. |
| very interesting... | entrope
Jun 21, 2002 8:46 PM | | that everyone else on the board can be fooled by their perceptions except Mtry............... |
| How do you read that into what he said? | markw
Jun 22, 2002 3:20 AM | | I don't see that anywhere. Do you?
What I DO see though is where you, ans some other people, read things into the written word that doesn't exist in reality. Is it wishful thinking or simply an inability to comprehend? Usually it's the same people who claim to hear unsubstantiated changes in cables.
That hyperbole sure does have an effect, doesn't it? |
| How do you read that into what he said? | pctower
Jun 22, 2002 10:44 AM | | b What I DO see though is where you, ans some other people, read things into the written word that doesn't exist in reality.
Agreed, he was certainly reading into mtry's comment something that wasn't there.
b Usually it's the same people who claim to hear unsubstantiated changes in cables.
Strongly disagree. When I first came to this forum, I spent most of my time responding to attacks by naysayers on claims and arguments I had never made. The main reason I decided to stay around was my shock at how anti-intellectual and how dogmatic the naysayers were, all along claiming the mantel of scientific objectivity. The lack of intellectual integrity on the part of many naysayers was truly amazing. |
| Note the "Usually" phil. | markw
Jun 23, 2002 4:17 AM | | And, as you've probably noticed, the "naysayers don't have the patent on dogma. Case in point... this guy.
The personal attacks to/from both sides are amazing but it seems a lot more comes from the yeasayer camp.
And. going back to some of our earlier discussions, you know wher eI stand. It's amazing how many even refuse to accept my little personal awareness test as even remotely valid. |
| very interesting... | mtrycrafts
Jun 22, 2002 10:37 PM | | Not when DBT is implemented. Rather simple, rocket science not needed. |
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