|   Stereophile proves cable differences | Chuckd55
Jun 27, 2002 10:21 AM | | I came across an old Stereophile magazine showing differences between cables. January 1990 page 103. Ken Cowens hookes up a signal generator (one millisecond pulse at 3 or 9 volts) to a KBA 75 audio amp to a speaker. He wired a digital recording oscilloscope in parallel between the amp and speakers.
Don't have the means to print this article online but maybe someone can find it.
So maybe the diffferences are measurable. They are visible on the photos of the 'scope outputs. I still hear no diff's but came across a Revel speaker setup that might change my mind. We'll see. |
| Measurable vs. audible. | A
Jun 27, 2002 12:03 PM | | Yes, there are measurable differences between different wires. But it would be a mistake to confuse something being measurable with something being audible. Many things can be measured but not heard. For example, 100 kHz can be measured, but is not audible to humans. (No, I am NOT saying that no measurements are relevant to what can be heard; I am saying that not all measurements are relevant.)
So, double blind listening tests are still needed to establish an audible difference. See:
A "Explanation of Double Blind Test" 3/30/02 2:46pm |
| Measureable differences are one thing, | Dick Hertz
Jun 27, 2002 12:05 PM | | ...audible is quite another. You can measure the difference in distortion bewtween two amps out to several decimal places, but can you actually hear it? Probably not. |
| re: Stereophile proves cable differences | woodman
Jun 27, 2002 12:22 PM | | Chuck:
Sounds to me like someone who doesn't KNOW much of anything about electronics writing an article that tries to "prove" something which is in essence UN-proveable, except with a laboratory test using test equipment.
If the hookup of the 'scope was actually as you described it, it would not show the effect of the wire on the signal at all ... in fact, it would not show much of anything at all if wired "in parallel" between the amp and speaker.
In order for this "test" to show anything, it would have to be connected in a dual-trace mode, with one input connected ACROSS the output of the amp, and the other connected ACROSS the speaker terminals. This would at least show the effect of the speaker wire on the signal ... whether or not this effect is AUDIBLE is yet another matter, and is the basis upon which most "naysayers" say FUGGITABOUDIT ... there's nothing there which is significant or meaningful.
woodman |
| re: Stereophile proves cable differences | Haoleb
Jun 27, 2002 4:08 PM | | But, arent laboratory tests what you naysayer like the most?? |
| No sir, no sir, no sir ... | woodman
Jun 27, 2002 6:08 PM | | any performance differences that take laboratory testing to "prove" the existence of are COMPLETELY MEANINGLESS in my view. That's why I'm in the naysayer camp and think that all of this debate over the "sound" of wires and cables is just one big fat M-F- joke.
What's really, really sad is that the wire-worshippers actually DO hear the differences between various wires that they say they hear! Only they're completely unaware that the sonic diffs are NOT the result of any magic in the wires themselves, but are created by their very own ABEs!
Anyone who chooses to deny the truth of the foregoing has every right to do so (at their own expense, of course).
woodman |
| No sir, no sir, no sir ... | mtrycrafts
Jun 28, 2002 10:40 AM | | b NOT the result of any magic
No magic? David Copperfiled is a fake? Sylvia Brown is a fake? JOhn Edwards is a fake?
I cannot take this revelation, I am crushed. |
| re: Stereophile proves cable differences | mtrycrafts
Jun 28, 2002 10:37 AM | | Actually, we know about these kinds of tests. Nothing there.
We'd like DBT listening data even better, though. None to be found in Stereopile, TAS, UHF, etc. Why? |
| Who turned off the lights? | Chuckd55
Jun 27, 2002 7:59 PM | | Tonight, the background color at A/R is black! Letters are dark gray. Very strange. Hard to read in "the dark". The digital recording scope in their diagram has dashed lines aiming AT the wire in question so I guess it is not actually hooked up.
Quoting as much as I have time for:
"repeatable by anyone in the field ofengineering who has access to a recording'scope, amplifier, and can construct a single square edged pulse of one millisecondduration. We have found this typeof waveform gives a good correlatable results and ease of analysis. It is NOT the same as a repetetive squarewave."
"data series 1: all 6 cables feeding a Spica TC-50 speasker were measured at both ends"
"data series 2: ... Vanderstein 2C speaker"
"Data series 3 .... examine the leading edge over about 40us"
"the voltage at the speaker...shows an overshoot followed by a decaying ripple at the top at a repetition rate corresponding to about 3kHz at about 5% of signal in the overload case and about 3 or 4% in the rated load case. Further, after thesignal returns to zero, the speaker receives a damped voltage of the same 3kHz for a full couple of cycles before receding in noise level"
"... variation of about +/-..5-1.0% full scale. Cables 2,3, and 4 do exert some discernable influence in pulse shape. The voltage at the speaker differs from the voltage supplied by about 2 to 5%. I think this error signal should be clearly audible to ALMOST anyone serious about musical reproduction." |
| Something wrong with the wires... nt | Dick Hertz
Jun 28, 2002 10:16 AM | | nt |
| Who turned off the lights? | mtrycrafts
Jun 28, 2002 10:35 AM | | Yes, one can measure most anything with good gear. Unfortunately, one's hearing is nowhere near as good as those instruments in theses tests.
One definitive proof they didn't offer is DBT listening test results with stats to satisfy pctower:)
Many of these citations offer measured and plotted wire differences. Nothing new Stereopile has done.
Greiner, R.A., 'Amplifier-Loudspeaker Interfacing,' JAES vol. 28, no. 5 May 80, pg
Greiner, R.A., 'Another Look at Speaker Cables,' BAS Speaker Dec 78, addendum March 79
Greiner, R.A. 'Cables and the Amp Speaker Interface,' Audio, Aug 89, addendum Nov 89,
Greiner, R.A. "Forum: Twist and Turns,' Audio, Jan 92, pg.
Davis, Fred E., 'Effects of cable, Loudspeaker and Amplifier Interactions,' JAES, vol. 39, no. 6 Jun 91, pg.
Davis, Fred E., 'Speaker Cables: Testing for Audibility,' Audio, Jul 93, pg.
Davis, Fred E., 'Alpha-Core Goertz M1 & M2 Speaker Cables,' Audio, Aud 94, pg. 64, 65.
Meyer, E.B. 'The Amp/Speaker Interface,' Stereo Review, June 91, pg
Newell, P., 'Cable and Sound Delivery,' Studio Sound, Jul 91, pg
Olsher, D., 'Cable Bound,' Stereophile, Jul 88, pg
Warren, R. 'Getting Wired,' Stereo Review, Jun 90, pg.
Moir, J., 'Loudspeaker Cables,' Hi-Fi News& Record Review, May 79, pg.
Murray, E., 'Making the Right Connections,' CD Review, Aud 91, pg.
Ward, C. J., Thompson and Harling M., 'Speaker Cables Compared,' BAS Speaker, Apr 80,
Pass, Nelson 'Speaker Cables: Science or Snake Oil,' Speaker Builder, Feb 80, pg.
Pease, R. A., 'What's All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?' Electronic Digest, Dec 27, 90, pg.
Pease, R. A., 'What's All this Splicing Stuff, Anyhow?' part 2, Electronic Design, Jul 11, 91, pg.
Honeycutt, R. A., "Will 'Beasty' Speaker Cables Improve your Audio?" Radio-Electronics, Feb 91, pg.
Aczel, P. 'The Wire and Cable Scene: Facts, Fictions and Frauds,' The Audio Critic, Part I- Issue 15, Spring-Winter 90-91; Part II-Issue 16, Spring-Fall 91, pg 51-57; Part III- issue 17, Winter 91-92, pg.50-52.
Masters, Ian, 'Amplifiers and Speaker Cables,' Audio lab test, Audio Scene Canada, Jun 81, pg 24-27.
Greenhill, Larry 'Speaker Cables: Can you Hear the Difference?' Stereo Review, Aug 83, pg 46-51.
Klein, Larry 'Cable Conflicts: The Mystery of Getting Wired,' Electronics Now, Dec 93, pg. 80& 83.
Nousaine, Tom 'Wired Wisdom, The Great Chicago Cable Caper,' Sound & Vision(Canada), Sep 95, pg. 73-76.
Hayward, James 'Beating the Bafflegab & Filtering the FooFooDust,' Part 1- Marshall's Audio Ideas Guide(Canada) Summer/Fall 94
Hayward, James 'Making the Connection. Part Deux: A Closer Look ath the Role of Loudspeaker Cables,' Winter 95. Reprints available from Kimberkable.
Gallagher, Mitch '1/4" Cable Roundup,' Keyboard, Apr 99, pg. 44-48.
Villchur, Edgar 'Speaker Cables, Measurements vs Psychoacoustic Data,' Audio, Jul 94, pg 34-37.
Hoffman, Williwam R., ' The Truth About Speaker Cables,' Popular Electronics, Jul 95, pg 46-48, &93.
Kessler, Kehn & Nousaine, Tom 'Cross Talk, Do Cables Have a Sonic Personality all their Own?' Video, May 96, pg. 36-40.
Butterworth, Brent & Griffin, Al 'String 'em Up!' Home Theater,
Butterworth, Brent 'Walking the High Wire,' Home Theater, Nov 98, pg 94-102. |
| oh MTRY! youre such a bibliography! | hifitommy
Jun 28, 2002 5:10 PM | | i wish I knew how to do that! |
| oh MTRY! youre such a bibliography! | mtrycrafts
Jun 29, 2002 7:01 PM | | It is rather easy for some. You acquire them, read them and then you can post them too. Be carful though, you might learn something. |
| Impressive list, maybe Revel Gems can reveal diffs? (nt) | Chuckd55
Jun 28, 2002 7:45 PM | | |
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