|   For mtrycrafts | new member
Jul 10, 2002 2:31 PM | | i am almost 99% sure that i can tell the difference between Kimber Select cables and others in a DBT. These cables sound so thin and are easy to identify. if you are so sure that no one can pass a DBT then bet me and make some money. i believe it is only a matter of time now until someone passes a DBT.
new member |
| I'm not him, but... | Dick Hertz
Jul 10, 2002 7:29 PM | | ...I bet he'd welcome a DBT where the listener could determine the difference between two cables in a statistically meaningful way. Contrary to what many think, I believe all Mtry wants is a sound basis for determining any audible differences that may or may not exist. Anecdotal comments like "I heard a difference" aren't scientific proof. I've drawn the comparison before and I still believe it's accurate. Saying you've seen a flying saucer or a ghost is not scientific proof that they exist. Photos aren't proof (they can be easily faked, especially in the digital age). Plaster casts of alleged Bigfoot tracks aren't proof. They too can be faked. Likewise, using sighted tests to determine the audible differences between to pairs of speaker cables is scientifically flawed. Is it somehow being obstreperous to demand that a scientifically valid test method should be used to determine the alleged audible differences between components? |
| YES :) nt | mtrycrafts
Jul 10, 2002 11:04 PM | | nt |
| re: For mtrycrafts | mtrycrafts
Jul 10, 2002 11:03 PM | | Well, Richard Green had a $1000 bet going on this. He may take you up on it. Or, if you are in the mid west, Michigan area, I could set up a free demo from an audio club there abouts, or if you are in Toronto, someone else will be glad to take your money, or, if none of these interests you, a pre paid airline ticket to your home will get someone out to test your bravura.
Unfortunately, in the past, everyone chickened out when it was time for the rubber to hit the road.
And, I am sure you are not that 1st person in 25 years to be able to hear differences.
Pick a better moniker, and stick with it. After all, in a while you will be an old member. |
| Michigan huh? | new member
Jul 11, 2002 1:57 AM | | sounds good. i am quite serious about doing this to prove once and for all how obvious these differences are. again, i argue that people's perception IS IMPROVING and that it is only a matter of time until someone does this. can you tell me how you will respond if i pass a DBT, let's say twice?
new/old member |
| Yeah Michigan, what's wrong with Michigan | Richard Greene
Jul 11, 2002 7:56 AM | | I don't want to pressure people to come to Michigan -- I want to witness them do a blind listening experiment in their own listening room. I've already done three single-blind wire auditions in my listening room and a double-blind audition in someone else's Michigan-based listening room.
No success so far.
Maybe someone else has a better stereo and better listening room in their state, than I have in Michigan.
And better ears too.
What I want to do is to pay someone $1,000 to demonstrate their ability to hear wire differences among 10 foot speaker wires or 3 foot interconnects (wires intended for audio use -- no car jumper cables or wires with EQ circuits built in please), under blind volume-matched conditions so I can write an article about the experience.
I only require that anyone who takes me up on the offer conduct at least one single-blind volume-matched test
(easy to do - no cost - one assistant is required -
and perhaps as little as one hour of time is required)
where he successfully identifies different wires
in front of at least one non-related witness -- a witness
I can talk to on the phone BEFORE I spend my own money to travel to another state ... because if I travel somewhere to see a person who CAN'T demonstrate he can hear wire differences, I WILL demand compensation for my travel expenses (up to $1,000).
I'm not looking for someone who has never heard differences among wires under blind conditions "but is sure he can" ...
I'm looking for someone to repeat an experiment where he has ALREADY proven to at least one witness that he can hear
wire differences. |
| Michigan is a beautiful state | new member
Jul 11, 2002 3:38 PM | | I will try to get a test done locally first soon and then i will get back to you.
new member |
| Michigan huh? | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:25 PM | | b can you tell me how you will respond if i pass a DBT, let's say twice?
When you pass, in a credible manner, witnessed by trustworty observeres, not just a claim of friends, then you will be the first on the planet and be very famous.
Then I will change my mind that one person on the planet can hear a difference, yes.
b i argue that people's perception IS IMPROVING and that it is only a matter of time until someone does this.
You may argue anything you want. It is not perception that needs to improve, but the actual sensitivity to detect small sonic changes. Evolution is not heading in that direction in this noisy world. And, evolution is very slow. |
| Michigan huh? | new member
Jul 12, 2002 4:27 AM | | As usual, i disagree. |
| Michigan huh? | mtrycrafts
Jul 12, 2002 9:22 PM | | b As usual, i disagree.
That is allowed, but there will be a day when we agree on something :) |
| my moniker | new member
Jul 11, 2002 2:08 AM | | about my moniker, i find the psychology of new and old interesting. plenty of fear to be found on this subject. do you fear something new getting old?
new/old member |
| my moniker | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:20 PM | | NOt at all. The universe is like that. Cannot avoid it. |
| re: For mtrycrafts | JoeW
Jul 10, 2002 11:08 PM | | Why wager? I have heard differnces, which in some quarters makes me a 'golden ear'.
Screw wagers -you pay
Why I should be expected to submit to a test from bigfoot/alien hunters is too far removed from reality to consider |
| old/new | entrope
Jul 11, 2002 4:20 AM | | Are relative terms and meaningless without context.
There's an old saying that covers this I'm sure........
By the way Bigfoot lives in my house in the form of a 14 year old boy. |
| old/new | Billiam
Jul 11, 2002 7:07 AM | | No, he's at my house:-) My 14 year old wears a size 13 shoe. |
| Damned, they're everywhere.... | FLZapped
Jul 11, 2002 9:03 AM | | I have one of those too.....
-Bruce |
| re: For mtrycrafts | Billiam
Jul 11, 2002 7:04 AM | | Amen. Lets suppose that a DBT is conducted and found that yeahsayers were right in that one instance. Would this change any naysayers minds?? I would seriously doubt it. |
| Naysayers are not devils with horns on their heads | Richard Greene
Jul 11, 2002 8:13 AM | | That would be the yeasayers!
You can't be a naysayer if there is one person who can demonstrate his ability to hear wire differences under blind conditions.
- You could say a very low percentage (very low, but not zero) of people can hear wire differences under blind conditions if dozens had failed in the past ... and only one had succeeded.
- If one person succeeds in identifying wire differences under blind conditions, but refuses to take the test a second time, you could state the probability (the number will be very low, but not zero) that the "success" was nothing more than lucky guessing.
But all these are moot points because it seems no one has been able to "beat" a double-blind test of wires for several decades. |
| Naysayers are not devils with horns on their heads | Billiam
Jul 11, 2002 9:17 AM | | Have no idea where your topic header comes from. My only point is to say, you know how it goes,"a man convince against his will is of the same opinion still." I would probably react the same way if a test was done proving no difference. You have a nice day Richard. |
| Naysayers | new member
Jul 11, 2002 3:44 PM | | If a DBT is passed it would give that individual authority on the subject that naysayers don't have. if the naysayers can't hear the differences, would you buy a cables from them?
new member |
| Naysayers | Billiam
Jul 11, 2002 5:53 PM | | That would depend on if they were selling what I wanted. Just because someone is a naysayer doesn't mean that they can't sell a product they don't believe in. People do that all of the time. I wouldn't necessarily buy cables from a yeasayer either. I've met lots of yeasayer wackos with some really kooky ideas. |
| Naysayers | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:32 PM | | b Just because someone is a naysayer doesn't mean that they can't sell a product they don't believe in.
Yep, happens all th etime :( Ask Dunlavy :) |
| Naysayers | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:31 PM | | b . if the naysayers can't hear the differences, would you buy a cables from them?
You are confused. The naysayers don't have to hear anything. It is you who claims that you can hear a difference, has to. |
| re: For mtrycrafts | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:38 PM | | b ? I have heard differnces,
Yes, of course. You claiming this. But then, so do the people who have been abducted by aliens make claims of being abducted.
Or, the benefactors of a John Edwards reading, or Sylvia Brown reading, or vanPraagh.
Yep, many make claims, few have evidence. You don't.
Oh, that invisible dragon in the garage. |
| re: For mtrycrafts | new member
Jul 12, 2002 4:24 AM | | Actually, Edwards, Brown and Van Praag seem legitimate to me. Do you know who Brian Weiss is?
new member |
| re: For mtrycrafts | mtrycrafts
Jul 12, 2002 9:26 PM | | b Actually, Edwards, Brown and Van Praag seem legitimate to me.
Oh, you know their parantage? Legitimate in what respect? That they convince gullible people?
b Do you know who Brian Weiss is?
Nope, can't say I do. But I am sure you will tell me about him.
You know who James Randi is? |
| Good question | new member
Jul 12, 2002 10:04 PM | | Actually i do know who james randi is. you might find brian weiss interesting if you look him up on google.
new member |
| Good question | mtrycrafts
Jul 13, 2002 10:03 PM | | I thought you would give me a hint.
Are there others with that name there? How many do I have to wade through to find the one you are thinking about? |
| Is this him? | mtrycrafts
Jul 13, 2002 10:06 PM | | b illustrate the healing potential of past life regression therapy,
What a quack. No wonder you grouped him with the other 3. He fits well. |
| It must be possible ... | sam9
Jul 11, 2002 8:55 AM | | . . . with enough creativity to design a cable that screws up the sound enough that you could tell the difference between it and ordinary cables. Something with some passive filter components wired in to it might do the job. This would be the first possability I would consider wif presented with a cable that sounded "different". |
| It must be possible ... | FLZapped
Jul 11, 2002 9:10 AM | | Then it's no longer a cable, but a circuit. And yes, you could, but it's exceptionally trivial. Just as easily it could be designed to mess up the frequency response and NOT be audible too.
-Bruce |
| It must be possible ... | sam9
Jul 11, 2002 12:13 PM | | Not all that trivial. I've seen something like this for sale at an impressive price. |
| It must be possible ... | FLZapped
Jul 11, 2002 2:45 PM | | Two seperate issues. -Bruce |
| Sensitivity | new member
Jul 11, 2002 3:53 PM | | I can tell slight differences in sound with evironmental changes such as humidity increasing. the differences in cables are far more obvious.
new member |
| Sensitivity | Billiam
Jul 11, 2002 5:57 PM | | Really? Wow! You must be the dali lama of golden ears!!
:-) Good luck with the prove posts. |
| Sensitivity | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:43 PM | | It takes all kinds :)
I am not sure if even Jon ever claimed this :)but he can certainly tell the different insulation by sound alone :) |
| Sensitivity | mtrycrafts
Jul 11, 2002 10:41 PM | | b I can tell slight differences in sound with evironmental changes such as humidity increasing. the differences in cables are far more obvious.
JUst like that, we should believe this? Just another claim with no evidence. |
| Sensitivity | Kenk
Jul 15, 2002 9:02 AM | | <<I can tell slight differences in sound with evironmental changes such as humidity increasing. the differences in cables are far more obvious>>
I can hear some differences in sound with El Nino around. It sounds somewhat more liquid. |
| Sensitivity | mtrycrafts
Jul 15, 2002 2:46 PM | | Well, El Nino is a very broad and large effect. That I can believe much easier :) |
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