|   Do you need fancy cables for two channel stereo? | davidsny
Sep 1, 2003 10:11 AM | | Do you need fancy cables for two channel stereo? What would be a good choice for basic upgrade from off the shelf speaker wire? |
| Hey sailor, new in town? | skeptic
Sep 1, 2003 11:18 AM | | You're pulling our leg, right? That has been the debate on this board ever since I started reading and posting here at least two years ago. Unlike some boards who won't even allow anyone to entertain the idea that upgrading audio cables will not improve the performance of any sound system, many of the people who post here are convinced that this is just a waste of money by mostly naive inexperienced hobbyists only too eager to buy the story cynical purveyers of smoke and mirrors are all too eager to sell them. So far, nobody has offered any credible evidence that there is justification to buy these wires. So my advice to you is put your hands in your pockets, grab on tight to your money, and don't let go. Especially when you go into a store that sells audio equipment and they start talking about wires.
On the other hand, you can visit a site like Cable Asylum. They have as many ways for you to part with your money as there are people posting there. Just remember, a fool and his money are soon parted. |
| I think.......... | newbster
Sep 2, 2003 6:03 PM | | ........most cheap interconnects and wire probably affect sonics because they're usually so thin and poorly shielded. My advice is this. Go to Radio Shack and purchase 22 gauge solid core copper hookup wire(red and white rolls), some solder type phono plugs, an $8 soldering iron, some solder and build your own high quality cheap interconnects. Total cost less than $20. Kimber cable makes cables like this with stranded wire and they charge about $70. Keep your lengths as short as you need and braid the red and white cables around each other. This is as far as I will go for interconnects. For speaker wire I use 14 gauge solid core copper electrical wire from Home Depot. I do the same braiding with these wires. Enjoy :) |
| I think.......... | BluesDaddy
Sep 4, 2003 4:24 AM | | Where would the shielding be in this build?
Still too much money. Check out Parts Express' deal of the day, 6' patch cables for $2.49 each - 9/4 only. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=249-078&orefer=dotd090303 |
| I think.......... | newbster
Sep 4, 2003 10:23 AM | | The shielding is around the conductors. Is there some magic shielding on more expensive cabling? These aren't coax cables. I'd bet if you were to dissect those parts express cables you'd find the center conductor to be slightly thicker than the hair on your head. Yeah it's cheaper but not by that much. I stick by my recommendation. |
| I doubt it. | RADAR O_Riley
Sep 4, 2003 9:07 PM | | No thicker than a human hair? Let's assume a load impedance of 10k (it should never be that low) and a voltage swing of 10 volts peak (it should never be that high). I=E/R so the current through the interconnect will be 10/10,000 or 1/1000 (0.001) of an amp. How big does the center conductor have to be to carry that much current without causing problems? Assume copper; Is the thickness of a human hair enough? More to the point, is the center conductor in the interconnects you're criticizing thick enough to handle the current levels involved?
As for shielding goes, it doesn't have to be expensive to be expensive to be effective. An inexpensive foil shield can give 100% coverage, and a good braid can come close but usually cost more, and might be more rugged (depending on other design decisions).
It is not possible to determine the performance or reliability of an interconnect based on its diameter. Far more can be learned by cutting them open, and/or measuring them. A good interconnect will be well shielded, have excellent electrical characteristics, excellent durability, and connectors that match the needs of the end user. I tinker a lot, so I buy high-precision (machined) connectors for my own interconnects, because they give excellent contact while still being easy to connect and disconnect. Those who seldom tinker often prefer a tighter grip, and are quite happy with much cheaper connectors. Thinner cables have some advantages (for example, usually they're more flexible), but I've never used or tested (or cut open) any of the thin interconnects. Take a look at the copper over silk-thread conductors used to drive some 8-ohm headphones to get an idea of how thin a conductor can be when it only has to carry minimal current. I buy my interconnects in 50-foot rolls, and my connectors by the dozen, and I still have multiples of the price of the interconnects recommended above, so if they are reliable, have good electrical characteristics, nice connectors, and good flexibility, they might be a good choice. I can't really say one way or the other, and neither can anyone else who hasn't actually used, examined, and tested the things.
It's easy to forget how little current interconnects actually carry. 3.3 volts across 33k ohms gives only 0.0001 amps, so fat center conductors are not necessary. This changes when we use coax as speaker wire, where we may be swinging 50 to 100 volts across 4-ohms (or less). That's 12.5 to 25 peak amps (and more wattage than most amps can deliver). Not the kind of current you want running through a piece of copper as thin as a human hair.
What is the cross-sectional area of the line-level traces on the circuit boards in your audio gear? Compare that to the diameter of any interconnect you can find. Measure the DC resistance of a copper wire the size of a human hair. I'm not sure why you feel that the diameter of the center conductor is such a major issue. It's diameter relative to its distance from the shield, the dielectric, and other factors matter, but in isolation the center conductor diameter doesn't seem to be a major issue. Have I missed something?
R.O. |
| you've nailed everything...... | newbster
Sep 4, 2003 10:00 PM | | .......down firmly. I'll keep on building my custom interconnects thank you very much. After experimenting with cheap stranded zip cord for speaker wire I ended up using 14ga solid copper cables. Yes technically it wouldn't matter what I used as long as the thickness was there but I liked the solid. What's wrong with braiding some 22ga soid copper and making interconnects? I'm not sure I buy into the technical babble about solid vs. stranded but in my system, crazy as it may sound, I like the solid. There's also this feeling you get when you build something yourself that it makes you proud of what you did. It's so easy just to buy stuff. Why not build something when u can? And if a conductor is extremely thin its DC resistance would be higher the longer the run. It doesn't matter if you have a tiny center and a thick return. The same signal is flowing through both conductors. There's also the issue of impedance. DC doesn't flow through these cables AC does. A small change of capacitance or inductance in a cable caused by the material can affect the frequency response slightly. |
| you've nailed everything...... | mtrycrafts
Sep 4, 2003 11:49 PM | | b There's also this feeling you get when you build something yourself that it makes you proud of what you did.
That is hard to argue against :) |
| You should know. | RADAR O_Riley
Sep 5, 2003 10:21 PM | | Anyone who is building their own home obviously appreciates the advantages of doing things their own way. I'm finding the process of designing and building a home more than a little overwhelming at this point, but from past experiences I know this will only pass once the job is successfully completed. I suffer from Engineers Syndrome ("I know engineers; They love to change things." - Dr. McCoy), and am never satisfied with the first few iterations of anything. Sure hope I don't have to build a dozen homes before I get one that suits us. ;-)
Do you sometimes find yourself wondering if it is worth all the effort? I never wonder after the fact, but there are times when I'm in the middle of a project and bogged down, and I feel like it's a total waste. Not sure if that's a personal weakness or typical of those who tend to jump into new things with vigor.
Anyway Mtry, you probably know the advantages of doing it yourself, your way, far better than most. Does it get you down when you're not making any visible progress?
R.O. |
| You should know. | mtrycrafts
Sep 7, 2003 12:13 AM | | b Sure hope I don't have to build a dozen homes before I get one that suits us. ;-)
I don't think you will live that long <img src="http://www.egri.co.uk/smileys/sunflower.gif">
b Does it get you down when you're not making any visible progress?
Not at all. Patience helps. Seeing the end result in your mind helps. Seeing each step adding to the final product helps. Cannot over emphasize pre planning. Don't rush. Haste makes waste  |
| "Haste makes waste." | RADAR O_Riley
Sep 8, 2003 9:21 PM | | Good advice. I tend to over-plan (or over-analyze) and I think my pace really bugs some people, but anything worth doing is worth taking the time to do well. Patience, especially with myself, is often a problem, though I do try to manage it (as best I can). As for living long enough to do this a dozen times, I'm not even sure I'll live long enough to complete the first effort. However, if I don't, I don't think I'll care. ;-)
R.O. |
| DIY advantages. | RADAR O_Riley
Sep 5, 2003 10:06 PM | | You're so right about the way it is when we build our own stuff. I've been very active in the audio hobby on and off for over 40 years, and at this point I have to do-it-myself to get what I want. I've developed certain tastes and preferences over the years, and when I design and build my own stuff, it is simply a better fit.
As for the DCR of a conductor, the reason I only mentioned DCR is because the discussion up to that point was focused on the center conductor. In isolation it only has a DCR, which is primarily a function of cross-section and length. Reactance becomes an issue when you have a second conductor (or shield), and was really beyond the scope of my previous post. Such things aren't an issue,
b if
the interconnect is well designed (and that's not a terribly hard thing to do). Even if it were a difficult task, it hardly matters, as we're more likely to buy wire or coax than to try an make it ourselves. BTW, I have used solid speaker wire as well, but prefer something a little more flexible. I've also known of people who've made the mistake of using DC cable or wire (as in using automotive jumper cables for speaker wire), and this is a major mistake. The fat conductors with narrow spacing present a nasty load to the amp and can raise havoc.
Nobody ever really nails it all, as it's far too complex. ;-)
R.O. |
| <img src="http://www.egri.co.uk/smileys/biggrinbounce.gif"> | mtrycrafts
Sep 4, 2003 11:51 PM | | nt |
| What in the world!!!! | Tony_Montana
Sep 6, 2003 10:57 PM | | Please don't say Mtry have joined the rank of computer geeks :) |
| What in the world!!!! | mtrycrafts
Sep 7, 2003 12:19 AM | | Not at all. I was introduced to the trick and a web with 3 pages of this stuff. I thought, why not try the subject line
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