|   upgraded cables a must? | pizzakid13
Sep 11, 2003 6:43 PM | | right now i have a denon 3801 with in-ceiling B&W speakers. house was pre-wired during construction so speaker cable is out. i think it was 12 gauge. but what about the interconnects and sub? i have regular opticals and svideo. i plan on adding a hdtv soon so i will switch to component. also, the power centers by monster? thanks |
| re: upgraded cables a must? | mtrycrafts
Sep 11, 2003 11:00 PM | | Even if the speaker cables were a doable project, why would you want to change it? Like flushing good money down the toilet.
What is wrong with your interconnects?
Is that the cable to the sub or the sub itself? If the cable, same question as above. Sub is the easiest to cable.
Same for the rest of your cables. There is only mythology after normal, good cables.
Power Center? What is it supposed to do for you? |
| re: upgraded cables a must? | pizzakid13
Sep 12, 2003 12:27 AM | | thats why i am asking. sub cable was pre-wired also. has its own little hole in the wall. i ask because it seems so many people swear by these monster cables and surge protectors. when my system is running on DD5.1, it sounds awesome. so does my xbox. i bought $13 optical cables at sears. nothing special.
with the new tv, i need to upgrade to component so i was curious about what techies thought about the very expensive cables out there. appreciate all the help. |
| re: upgraded cables a must? | skeptic
Sep 12, 2003 5:05 AM | | Cavaet Emptor. Buyer beware.
There is a lot of advertising for these cable products and there is a lot of written material that is suggestive of claims for performance improvements but if you examine these statements carefully you will see that no actual claims are usually made, only strongly suggested at or hinted at. This is because most of the larger companies have good lawyers who do their best to keep their clients just inside the FTC rules and laws regulating advertising claims. The real claims of improvement come verbally at the retail level where they it can't be proven what was said. Like the victims of most con games, people who buy these products never take any action to redress the fraud that was committed because like most victims of this type of crime, they cannot bear to face the fact that they have been had. Not only to other people but they can't even admit it to themselves. While nobody has ever proven either superiority of these products or even that they perform differently in any useful way, the possibility that some of them might alter the sound of a stereo system cannot be entirely discounted. However, different doesn't mean better and for the money some of these products sell for there should be some independent verification that you will get what you are expecting. But there isn't and never has been.
Having worked briefly directly for an AV contractor myself and having built a number of high end AV projects as an EE and project manager for large corporations, I can tell you first hand that these expensive cables are almost never used in professional installations. Instead, generic cables from high quality manufacturers like Belden are always used. It is only in high end residential installations that some of these products might find their way into an AV system, not because they improve performance but because the customer expects them and sometimes even insists on them. It is also a way to increase profits for the contractor.
The use of special power centers for home audio systems is totally unjustified. Surge protectors that protect equipment from damage is all that is needed. If there is an actual problem with the quality of AC power coming into your home, there is no practical solution that will work to solve it that is affordable to home consumers. At best, an inexpensive UPS might help. At worst it will do nothing except keep your equipment operating for a while during a power outage and afford some damage protection. |
| A good AC surge protector / filter is money well spent !! | franko
Sep 12, 2003 8:34 AM | | I live in the Dallas TX area and I can tell you that we get lots of power surges and brown outs.
And when Living in an apartment I actually lost a TV, receiver, cd player and VCR (about $1000 of value)to some kind of surge during a lightning storm. I complained to the electric company and they told me to screw myself. Lucky for me I had apt insurance but I still had to swallow $250 worth of deductible.
Now I have a house...
In my HT room I have a Monster power HTS2100, In my stero room I have a Monster power HTS1000 and in the bedroom I only had a $12 walmart power strip.
Well guess what...last year we got hit in the middle of the night...the next morning the bedroom tv could not pick up any channels...but the other 2 rooms equipment were fine. Some kind of surge through the coax line.
So when I went to get a replacement TV I bought a Monster power HTS850.
Power Protection / Filtering is money well spent. And normally I do not like to pay for Monster products but you can find them online for good prices, look around.
By the way Acoustic Resarch makes good cheap interconnects. |
| What's in it? | skeptic
Sep 12, 2003 9:53 AM | | If power protection is nothing more than an MOV and maybe a capacitor, it isn't worth a lot. Not the $250 and $150 they are asking for these two models. For that kind of money you can buy a surge protector from a company like Square D and have an electrician install it in your circuit breaker panel and it will protect EVERY appliance in your house. Protection of RF circuits like cable tv and satellite signals is available for much less money also from A/V supply houses that are just as effective. You only need one at the main cable or antenna feed into your house. That will protect all of them. As with the case of the cables they and their competitors sell, there isn't much they tell you (I visited their web site) about what you are actually getting. Just a lot of scare and hype. Of course, it's a lot easier plunking down your money and just plugging it in than calling a contractor or going down to an electrical supply house and installing one in your panel yourself. |
| Check your numbers | franko
Sep 12, 2003 1:37 PM | | Point 1:
As I said you can find the Monster Power HTS2100 on the net for about $180 not 250. And the older HTS1000 on the net for about $90. It is hard to find this kind of protection for this low of a price.
Point 2:
With regards to Whole House Surge protection there are two types.
A: Units that actually are between your service and your breaker panel (the good ones) such as Westinghouse, Square D cost about $250 and should be profesionaly installed another $200. These are good but have very high ratings so they will not protect against minor surges that can still hurt sensitive electronics.
B: Smaller units that piggy back to a couple of breakers that soak up the excess power, such as Panel Guard. These are about $150 and work so so, but they do not promise to pay for any equipment that has been damaged.
Point 3:
The Monster power products and Tripplite products and Panamax products all back up their products with guarantees to replace your stuff if it gets fried. A friend of mine had his panamax protector burn up during a storm (but it still protected his equipment) and panamax sent him a new one! Not to mention surge protection is more effective just before the equipment you want to protect.
Point 4:
A good surge protector is not just a couple of MOVs. Good surge protectors have multiple MOVs, multiple caps and torroidal inductors. And as said before the cheap surge protectors do not guarantee to replace any equipment that gets burned.
Like I said before...it only takes ONE time for your equip to get fried before you change attitude about Power protection. |
| Check your numbers | skeptic
Sep 12, 2003 1:57 PM | | The prices I quoted were list from Monster's web site. The prices you quoted are also list. I've never paid anything close to list price for anything I can recall. It seems to me all MOVs for 120 volt circuit protection break down at 178 volts. I'd go with them in my panel.
Not having a clue as to what they put in your surge protectors, if I were forced to choose, I'd go for the UPSs. They are the only product they sell that I could be sure is actually worth a damn. I'd also check out competitive models at electrical and A/V equipment supply houses. Monster really doesn't give you much technical information about their UPSs either. |
| Check your numbers | mtrycrafts
Sep 12, 2003 11:17 PM | | If you need surge protection, it seems what you need in TX, Consumer Reports rated the Tripp lite the highest and is about $60. So, even $180 is too much, but that is Monster for you, expensive.
b And as said before the cheap surge protectors do not guarantee to replace any equipment that gets burned.
But your home owners insurance will. Read the fine print on the Monster's guarantee. Pays after your home owners insurance pays. And probably depreciated prices. |
| Check your numbers | skeptic
Sep 13, 2003 5:19 AM | | MOVs and capacitors are cheap.
"A good surge protector is not just a couple of MOVs. Good surge protectors have multiple MOVs, multiple caps and torroidal inductors."
Seems to me that any inductor to be effective would have to be in series with the load. This does the exact opposite of what those wonder power cords are supposed to do. Puts one more voltage dropping element between the utility step down transformer and you equipment. How about a nice computer grade isolation transformer. A really good UPS has one built in but you aren't talking about a cheapie. I'd stick with one of the big three, Exide(Powerware), MGE, or Liebert. Or I'd check out an A/V supply house and find out what the pros use. (I can't remember what the A/V contractor I worked for used but it wasn't one of the overpriced underperforming mostly packaging, hype, and markup you get from the products sold by audiophile dealers. What a joke. |
| Check your numbers | pizzakid13
Sep 13, 2003 3:11 PM | | what about home depot? do they sell surge protectors for big stuff? |
| Check your numbers | skeptic
Sep 13, 2003 3:25 PM | | I'm guessing that they sell surge protectors as part of power strips. Nothing fancy. |
| Surge Protector supplier links.... | FLZapped
Sep 15, 2003 9:46 AM | | Home Depot:
http://www.homedepot.com/prel80/HDUS/EN_US/diy_main/pg_diy.jsp?CNTTYPE=PROD_META&CNTKEY=Products_2%2fElectrical&BV_SessionID=@@@@1340309259.1063643238@@@@&BV_EngineID=cceeadcjgjeiedlcgelceffdfgidgmm.0&MID=9876&DRC=4&pos=n06
Newark Electronics:
http://www.newark.com/NewarkWebCommerce/newark/en_US/support/search/searchResults.jsp?action=0&First=0&QText=surge+protector&x=20&y=7
-Bruce |
| The Home Depot Belkin units are good BUT | franko
Sep 15, 2003 10:04 AM | | If you want better you will have to pay a little more.
The belkin units protect to 1700 joules or so
The HTS2100 and HTS1100 from monster protect to 2775 joules.
It just depends how much protection you want. I spend over $5000 on my home theater...so I prefer to be on the safe side and spent more.
But some sort of protection is better than nothing I am glad you are buying it. |
| When those MOVs are fried you'll never know it. | skeptic
Sep 15, 2003 5:12 PM | | There's simply no substitute for a UPS. That is a good UPS. You get a clean local supply of power that is free from noise, sags, surges, dips, outages, and all manner of disturbances. It costs. But if you have a very expensive investment in electronic equipment, it is not a bad insurance policy. This is especialy true of computers whose disk drives are very vulnerable to damage. When you buy a cheap so called power conditioner with a handful of MOVs, a capacitor or two, a small inductor to surpress RF, you really aren't getting a whole lot. Put them together in a fancy package with hosptial grade receptacles and they charge you an arm and a leg for nothing of real value. A $9 surge surpressor from RS is about as effective.
BTW, speaking of hospital grade receptacles, I think I'll make that the issue of the day. A lot of so called experts recommend hospital grade receptacles. Why are they different from ordinary receptacles? Here's the reason. In a hospital, there is often oxygen in use. Oxygen makes anything that will burn far more combustible. So to reduce the risk of a spark igniting a fire in case an oxygen hose leaks, the ground conductor is advanced in such a way that the ground connection is the first to make and last to break when you insert or remove a plug. This reduces the risk of a spark caused by static charge buildup on equipment starting a fire. So be sure to get one for your stereo system if you use pure oxygen near it when you are making or removing 120 volt plugs. |
| Are you trying to sell us a UPS or something | franko
Sep 16, 2003 9:33 AM | | Yes UPSs are nice...for computers...are a waste of money for a HT or audio setup.
A computer with monitor only needs like 500VA which you can get a UPS for about $80
BUT a home theater setup uses a lot more juice
Mine for example 520VA for big screen, 380VA for receiver, 210VA for sub, 110VA for vcr and 80VA for DVD player. That is 1300VA...which would be a pricey UPS. probably a couple of grand NOW THAT IS A WASTE OF MONEY.
BTW
I do not use any Hospital grade plugs in my house but they are liked for other reasons than sparking. Hospital grade plugs are liked because they are fully shielded and provide very good contact with the receptacle compared to ordinary plugs. |
| Are you trying to sell us a UPS or something | skeptic
Sep 16, 2003 11:19 AM | | I don't know what good shielding a plug will do when your house is wired with Romex meaning none of the rest of your house wiring is shielded. Don't try to shield your power cord yourself. It relies on air circulation to carry away heat. If you buy an after market power cord and it is shielded and UL listed, at least it is safe to use. Not that it will make any improvement in your sound.
A UPS is the only device that offers complete protection for your pc or other appliance. I am not recommending that you buy one but if you buy anything, be sure to check out exactly what you are getting, exactly what it does, and what the competition not distributed through audio dealers are offering and their prices. As Johnny come latelys to this area, it seems to met that the ones that sell through audio dealers offer in my experience little information and when you find out what you are actually getting, you could do just as well for far less money or much better for the same money you are paying. The Monster voltage regulator looks to me suspiciously like a Sola transformer. If it is, it is a good unit although I haven't check Sola's price as a direct purchase. One thing you should know about them though is that you have to load them down to at least 10% of their rated load before they start regulating.
If you have bought a multi thousand dollar amplifier and preamplifier, or turntable, as expensive as a good UPS is, it may be worth considering. |
| You know skeptic I wonder about you sometimes... | franko
Sep 15, 2003 9:49 AM | | You claim to be a EE but you have a very closed mind and almost non-technical viewpoint of things.
If you were to buy a good surge protector and open it such as I did mine you would see what is in it.
And if that does not convince you go and get your college textbook for electronic machines course (it has different titles at different schools) Anyway it is the course where you study things like relays, motors, transmformers...most modern textbooks now devote a section to surge/lightning suppression. In there you will find circuits, theory and models.
By the way I used to work in the UPS industry a small company that was swallowed up by EXIDE. So I have a little bit of experience there.
If you are $$$ consious I can tell you that any of the EXIDE, Melan Geran or Liebert products are way more $$$ than you want to spend.
You seem to be confused though... because the Monster power and Panamax stuff is very reasonable. The EXPENSIVE stuff sold by audiophile dealers are units like the Power Wedge products and PS Audio products which are above $1000. |
| where did you work in the UPS industry, shipping and receiving? | skeptic
Sep 15, 2003 2:21 PM | | Well what did you find inside your whizbang Monster Unit? I stopped considering these audiophile units a long time ago because it was ALL hype. Evey one I looked at was little more than a glorified power strip with a cheap MOV, a capacitor, and that's about it. Considering the prices they charged, you got just about nothing, zilch, zero for it. I don't follow that any more. I don't know what their latest crapola is. But I do know that a company based on a product line of speaker wire and interconnect cables has little problem with misleading customers just short of violating FTC rules on advertising. I visited their web site and looked at their adverts. I did not see one technical fact that anyone selling power conditioning or UPSs would normally put in their ads. That says all I have to hear. Does Exide or Liebert charge more, maybe a lot more? Maybe yes but you can be sure if you buy theirs that you are getting something of real value for your money. What do you get when you buy this? Unless you open it up and figure it out for yourself, I think you have no way of actually knowing. BTW, if their voltage stabalizer AVS2000 uses a ferroresonant transformer, it's at least 35 year old technology and probably a lot older than that. Why pay for their markup when you can buy it directly from Sola? (If it's an automatic tap changer, it is all but worthless.)
Oh and by the way, I am a degreed Electrical Engineer with over 30 years of experience and I've bought and installed millions of dollars of UPSs and power conditioning equipment, probably more than you and everybody you know will ever see in their lives put together. And I've also seen more scams than I'd care to think about, including some big ones. |
| Well OL'timer I worked in Tech service and sales support | franko
Sep 16, 2003 9:18 AM | | The company I used to work for (over 8 years ago) was IPM International Power Machines. They were bought out by Exide in 96 i think (I was gone by then). They built very nice UPSs but were a little more expensive. Amazing though because Exide has also bought out Best. I worked in tech support and also traveled with the sales team for big accounts and startups for high profile customers.
I have a BS in EE and a Masters specializing in RF transmission. I also have a PE in the state of Texas.
Not to mention I have been working with electrons since I was 16: I passed my Journeyman electrician licence when I was 17, was installing AMPS cellular systems when I was in college, and recieved my BS by age 22.
Do you have 30 years experience...we will never see proof. But if you do work for a UPS company go the design department and ask them what their ac input circuitry looks like. Or maybe you are nearing retirement.
So What UPS company do you work for? Maybe you are the one who works in shipping.
Funny you know their are two types of engineers the ones that continue to progress and the ones who continue to live in the 'back in my day'.
I am guessing you are one of those old giezers that is still watching and repairing his 1982 Sylvania, removes the cover on his quazar VCR to clean the heads, still only has a am/fm radio in his 76 ford and still wears a clip on tie.
Just kidding...but seriously...do not be so synical old feller not all new technology is out to git ya.
Done with this subject. |
| Well OL'timer I worked in Tech service and sales support | skeptic
Sep 16, 2003 2:46 PM | | For about three of the eleven years I worked at Bell Communicatons Research, I was the chief electrical engineer. I also spent about 4 years at AT&T, worked on Fossil and Nuclear power plants for a large consulting firm for about 3 years, spent five years in Silicon valley building semiconductor wafer fabs and electronics plants, a couple of years way back as an EE in what was the largerst steel plant in the world, spent some time as a field superintendant for a GC building toll booth plazas a long time ago and other assorted jobs in the pharmaceutical plants and in the defense industry. I don't have any plans to retire any time soon.
I have purchased and installed more UPSs than I can count. The largest project included a 1500 KVA Liebert consisting of dual Series 600 modules with a paralleling unit, 6 250 KVA PDUs, 2 1000 amp feeder busses and a 2000 amp maintenance bypass bus, additional 1000 amp distribution bus, complete rework of 33 distribution panels, a 3000 KVA drawout breaker substation, battery room (of course) plus a major chiller plant revamp including new cooling towers, plate and frame heat exchanger, Allen Bradley Procos autiomation of the entire plant. The UPS phase was a crash program which should have taken about 10 months and got built in a little over 4. While all of that was going on I designed 40,000 square feet of gut rehab office renovation during the evenings over pizzas with my collegues in my department and oversaw projects left over on another site I had been transferred from. All this was a one year effort in 1993. Many of the other 29 were just as exciting.
I've seen a lot of scams and crap like zig zag transformers, automatic tap switching power conditioners, industrial surge surpressors (now there was a prize.) I've probably done battle with just about every major UPS manufacturer in the industry (with the exception of MGE.) As the project manager and electrical engineer for the owner I'm the point man that's got to make their crap work or I'm fired. Sometimes, money is hardly and object, especially when a hundred million dollar data center is on the line and an army of managers and executives are standing around waiting for their computers to come back up on schedule after a shut down for cutting in new equipment.
BTW, Best had the reputation as being the worst manufacturer in the UPS industry. And I heard of IPM but never bought any of their products. I like to stick with manufacturers that I think will be around to service their products in 5 or 10 years.
And no I don't have any Sylvania tv sets. I have 12 Sony's including four 36-XBR 250s. And in my house, VCRs have become disposable items. I don't know how many I have that work, how many I've trashed, and how many are piled up in the basement waiting to be trashed. I live with a tv freak. And I drive a 96 Lincoln Mark VIII LSC only because I couldn't get the even faster 95. And I've gotten the speeding tickets to prove it. |
| Whats wrong with BEST UPS's? | GTF
Sep 18, 2003 8:32 PM | | Their ferrups line I thought was-is a great UPS.
With that ferroresonant transformer so brownout conditions aren't a problem.
GTF |
| Whats wrong with BEST UPS's? | skeptic
Sep 19, 2003 5:31 AM | | Besides the fact that I only met one engineer who ever liked them and that anytime an architect or engineer specified a generic one for a building you got Best because it was the cheapest on the market their single phase unit was a frustrating beast. Every time someone found a surplus 120/208 unit somewhere and wanted to re-use it, it became an issue. The last one I saw was a 10KVA unit about 5 or 6 years ago. Like the rest it was 208v phase to phase, 120v neutral to one leg, and 86 volts neutral to the other leg. This meant it was a code violation to use any standard circuit breaker panelboard on the load side for distribution because it would have used the panel in a way "not intended by the panelboard manufacturer" so you'd wind up having to replace it with a new 3 phase unit. Try telling that to an MIS manager who is on a tight budget. |
| Read Consumer Reports for home insurance again!! | franko
Sep 15, 2003 9:34 AM | | The reason a good surge suppressor is smart is that it keeps your gear safe so you do not have to pay the deductible, In my case for weather damage it is 1% of the house which is $2500...that means I have to swallow the first $2500 in every claim. That is why for me (and many like me) a ounce of prevention is better than a pound of repairs.
By the way insurace pays "replacement cost" which is always lower than what you paid. Monster will reimburse you for price paid (keep your receipt though).
Ohh so you are a Consumer reports guy...that explains a lot.
You are like my brother in law the "consumer reports best buy" kind of guy. You must be one of those guys who pulls out a calculator to figure out what each person owes at lunch.
Does that mean you own a Panasonic receiver, Bose speakers, jvc dvd player with RCA 5 disc cd player. Must be since you have never admitted to what audio equipment you own.
By the way consumer reports tested the Computer surge suppressors...not the Audio/Video surge suppresors. The AV surge suppressors have protection on the coax line and also filter the AC.
I subscribe to consumer reports also but many times I many times disagree with them because they typically choose the cheapest product that does the job as where I typically choose the best product at the price I can afford. I do use their breakdown info a lot though.
Do you use any kind of Surge suppression? If so what kind? |
| Read Consumer Reports for home insurance again!! | mtrycrafts
Sep 16, 2003 11:47 PM | | b Ohh so you are a Consumer reports guy...that explains a lot.
I read many magazines, yes.
b You must be one of those guys who pulls out a calculator to figure out what each person owes at lunch.
At times that is a very good idea.
b Must be since you have never admitted to what audio equipment you own.
I may not even have any. Irrelevant, isn't it?
b By the way consumer reports tested the Computer surge suppressors...not the Audio/Video surge suppresors. The AV surge suppressors have protection on the coax line and also filter the AC.
Just an added feature. A surge protector is a surge protector. AC doesn't need filtering, unless you buy poorly designed components. Do you?
b Do you use any kind of Surge suppression? If so what kind?
I don't know what my computer is plugged into. Not important. It works. |
| re: upgraded cables a must? | mtrycrafts
Sep 12, 2003 11:23 PM | | Sub cable should be fine, if you can use th epre-wired ones. If not, get an interconnect from Target, WalMart, Radio Shack, etc.
b i ask because it seems so many people swear by these monster cables and surge protectors.
Yes, many swear by astrologers too, or homeopathic medicines. Lots of Bs in audio. If you need a surge protector, Consumer Report rated them in 00. Tripp Lite.
b when my system is running on DD5.1, it sounds awesome.
Great. That is because of the speakers, your room and recording, not the wires and other bs.
b i bought $13 optical cables at sears. nothing special.
Good. That is all you need for digital audio.
b with the new tv, i need to upgrade to component so i was curious about what techies thought about the very expensive cables out there. appreciate all the help.
Expensive cables are for the gullible ones. Nothing more than expensive sugar pills. If you want component video cables, you need 3 runs of video cables. You can even use the cable TV cable, 3 runs with RCA adaptors. |
| re: upgraded cables a must? | pizzakid13
Sep 13, 2003 12:14 AM | | well, that makes it easy. i will stick with my current opticals and add component when i get the tv. i'll drop by "the shack" and look around. also get a reputable surge protector. i forget what the one i have is rated for. |
| Power Protection is a MUST, with left over $$ buy cables | franko
Sep 12, 2003 8:42 AM | | Power protection is good prevantative maintenance.
I live in the Dallas TX area and I can tell you that we get lots of power surges and brown outs.
And when Living in an apartment I actually lost a TV, receiver, cd player and VCR (about $1000 of value)to some kind of surge during a lightning storm. I complained to the electric company and they told me to screw myself. Lucky for me I had apt insurance but I still had to swallow $250 worth of deductible.
Now I have a house...
In my HT room I have a Monster power HTS2100, In my stero room I have a Monster power HTS1000 and in the bedroom I only had a $12 walmart power strip.
Well guess what...last year we got hit in the middle of the night...the next morning the bedroom tv could not pick up any channels...but the other 2 rooms equipment were fine. Some kind of surge through the coax line.
So when I went to get a replacement TV I bought a Monster power HTS850.
Power Protection / Filtering is money well spent. And normally I do not like to pay for Monster products but you can find them online for good prices, look around.
By the way Acoustic Resarch makes good cheap interconnects. |
| re: upgraded cables a must? | pizzakid13
Sep 12, 2003 11:11 AM | | thanks for the help. |
| Absolutely (nt) | HTguy
Sep 12, 2003 11:42 AM | | I said (nt)!! |
| Just a suggestion | JoeE SP9
Sep 13, 2003 2:21 PM | | If you or anyone else doesn't mind inhaling rosin fumes you could try building your own cables. mouser.com has 100 and 500ft rolls of Belden 9259 cable $46.25/137.18. This stuff is sweep tested from 5 to 450MHz. It has a 22 gauge (7x30) stranded core. They also have some very nice Deltron pnono plugs (Black Chrome or Gold) at $4.99 each. Been using these for last several years and very satisfied. |
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