|   I am glad I do not come here listening to Naysayers advice! | Abex
Sep 22, 2003 5:56 AM | | In the last month I have tried various Cables Silver & Copper. I have tried several diverent Geometries and Insulators to see what might be the best combination for my components.
If anyone where to do what I had and still insisted there was no difference in cables they would have to be either lying to themselves or deaf!Possibly alittle of both.
Now I am trying Video Cables. Might be that my eyes are decieving mw also! Seems that some have an effect on sharpness and color .Must be blind I guess or delusional.Maybe flashbacks!
Next up Digital cables.I have already had several in my system.Canare being the worst. Still trying to figure out what Corey Greenburg ever heard in this piece of junk! Works and some places and completely dismal as a source cable!Stereophile still has it as a favorite,guess they never tried Belden which flatly outs it to shame.
Oh well I guess I will try to stay away from Walmart and Ratshack and keep making my own cables! |
| So are the cable merchants, especially around bonus time (nt) | skeptic
Sep 22, 2003 7:38 AM | | |
| Higher end cables are worst investment one makes. | Tony_Montana
Sep 22, 2003 7:55 AM | | If you don't believe me, just go to Audiogon and see amount of higher end cable being resold. I bet you most of them won't even get 50% of their investment returned :) |
| Higher end cables are worst investment one makes. | okiemax
Sep 23, 2003 9:48 PM | | Based on years of following prices of used audio equipment, my observation is that most used items sell in about a 40 percent to 70 percent range of new list price. I have not, however, observed that cables depreciate more than anything else. A review this evening of equipment currently on sale in the classified section of Audiogon reconfirms my conclusion.
I might add that you have to be careful about using list prices for calculating percent depreciation. Generally, the list prices on very expensive items ars softer than those on moderately priced goods. Some research may be needed to determine the actual street price of a new item.
Because of the high initial depreciation , I prefer to buy used audio gear. If you resell used items, there may be little if any loss. |
| But what about lenght of usage? | Tony_Montana
Sep 24, 2003 4:19 PM | | Even if the cable was only used once, its price is depreciated greatly. Far more than audio component's price for same amount of usage :) |
| But what about lenght of usage? | okiemax
Sep 26, 2003 11:14 AM | | You said "Even if the cable was only used once, the price is depreciated greatly. Far more than audio component's price for the same amount of usage:)" I'm new to this, so before I address your commment, I want to ask what the ":)" at the end of a sentence means?
It would be difficult to determine the usual resale price of audio components "only used once" without doing an expensive survey. Audiogon results, however, can be examined for the sales prices of items that are fairly new.
I recently gathered data on used interconnect cables and solid state amps sold on Audiogon from August 22 to September 24(the time frame available from Audiogon.) Only ads having the following information were selected: a retail list price was stated, the asking price was firm, and the item was purchased new less than a year before.
The resale prices of the 8 amps in the selection category averaged 59% of retail list price, and the 7 interconnects averaged 54%. The average for the amps was brought down by an unusually low 18% for a Sharp SM-SX1. If the Sharp is thrown out, the average for the remaining 7 amps is 64%. Regardless, the differences between resales prices of amps and interconnects was not large.
Initial depreciation as a consideration in the purchase of new cables may be irrelevant anyway, since many sellers give a 30 day money- back guarantee , and some even give 60 days. Used cables usually are not sold with a guarantee, but there is a firm that rents used cables for audition. |
| Interesting results. | Tony_Montana
Sep 26, 2003 10:41 PM | | Were those the asking price, or what they actually sold for?
Thanks :) |
| Interesting results. | okiemax
Sep 26, 2003 11:23 PM | | I picked only Audiogon classified ads that said the asking price was firm and the item was sold, and I assumed the asking price was the sales price. Actual sales prices are not reported in the ads. |
| If you enjoy the spending of money with virtually no gain ... | woodman
Sep 22, 2003 12:27 PM | | ... go ahead. Be my guest. There's little doubt that you are experiencing what you claim
b but
the simple, plain, unvarnished truth of the matter is that you're not aware of WHY your perceptions are what they are, and what is causing them. I call them ABEs (Attitudes, Beliefs, Expectations). Whether one realizes it or not, they are the basic building blocks of all of our sensory perceptions - sight, hearing, taste, touch, and smell.
Naysayers? Rrrriiiiight.
Yeasayers? NOOOOOOOOOOO - not by the hairs on my chinny-chin-chin!
woodman |
| Ignore the Naysayers | JoeE SP9
Sep 22, 2003 6:02 PM | | The naysayers will tell you there is no difference in anything. I think they have diminished hearing capacity. Gross differences in devices are ignored completly by them. Their only response is to bring up DBT. I don't know what they listen to or through what they listen, but they will not believe their ears. 25 years ago I didn't believe my ears and invested in a lot of solid state equipment "lower distortion and quieter than tubes". My first wife who was an audiophile and didn't know it taught me to "listen to my ears". That is my advice. I use Belden cable and Deltron RCA's for my IC's. An awful lot of commercial IC's and speaker cables are waaaaay overpriced and I refuse to support that market. |
| Ignore the Naysayers | mtrycrafts
Sep 22, 2003 10:46 PM | | b The naysayers will tell you there is no difference in anything.
Can you proove this?
b I think they have diminished hearing capacity.
Yes, thinking is still free.
b Their only response is to bring up DBT.
Why would we bring up a flawed worthless protocol to find answers?
b I don't know what they listen to or through what they listen, but they will not believe their ears.
Oh, it is you who will not trust your ears. You need your eyes to see the differences. DBT listeing, in fact only uses your hearing ability. I guess you hearing is diminished in capacity that you need to rely on your eyes to convince you. |
| Ignore the Naysayers | FLZapped
Sep 26, 2003 11:44 AM | | i The naysayers will tell you there is no difference in anything.
Really, please bring forth your citations supporting this conclusion.
i I think they have diminished hearing capacity.
Really? So you are just guessing. WHen was the last time you tested YOUR hearing. Think it's perfect?
i Gross differences in devices are ignored completly by them.
Please bring forth your citations that support this conclusion.
i I don't know what they listen to or through what they listen, but they will not believe their ears.
More guesswork.....I'm beginning to think your mane is really Jon.
Oh, and where is what we listen to important? It makes us happy, may not make you happy for any number of reasons - some subjective.
i My first wife who was an audiophile and didn't know it taught me to "listen to my ears". That is my advice.
Ahhhh, now we see where this comes from. Your advice is based on blind faith in your relationship, not any rational approach to decision making.
i An awful lot of commercial IC's and speaker cables are waaaaay overpriced and I refuse to support that market.
Well, at least we agree on something. Why do you think that is so??
-Bruce |
| Ignore the Naysayers at your own peril | skeptic
Sep 26, 2003 3:21 PM | | "Their only response is to bring up DBT."
That is because it is the only scientifically accepted method to begin getting at the truth. Once an audible difference in sound has been established (so far it hasn't) the process then proceeds to find out what technical factors contribute to this difference. Then the process continues to see if there is more than one way to effect the same changes, which are the most efficient and controllable methods, and whether any gains are worth the cost. Some people dismiss the importance of this process for various reasons mostly having to do with their emotional investment in an outcome that has never been obtained. But smart shoppers ignore these facts at their own risk and the risk of their bank accounts. |
| You are back | mtrycrafts
Sep 22, 2003 10:57 PM | | I see.
b In the last month I have tried various Cables Silver & Copper. I have tried several diverent Geometries and Insulators to see what might be the best combination for my components.
I bet it wasn't under bias controls.
b If anyone where to do what I had and still insisted there was no difference in cables they would have to be either lying to themselves or deaf!
But you have no idea what you think you heard or perceived. You were biased, you used a crutch, not your ears.
b Now I am trying Video Cables.
Good. I have seen DBT on them too, one with comparison to a 120V power cable, very long one. Interesting results.
b Next up Digital cables.
Yes, even coat hangers were used successfully, bit perfect transmission.
b Canare being the worst. Still trying to figure out what Corey Greenburg ever heard in this piece of junk!
Probably the same as he heard from other digi cables, no differences, just imagined ones.
b guess they never tried Belden which flatly outs it to shame.
Can that be proven? |
| More subjectivism | JoeE SP9
Sep 24, 2003 11:22 AM | | When I first became an audiohpile I listened to my ears. I went to college and got my BS EE and read the specs and became totally objective. The amount of time I spent listening slowly declined. Eventually helped along by "CD's" I pretty much stopped listening. Now I don't care about looks, specs or anything other than am I listening and liking it. Although I personally use Belden cable with Deltron RCA's (Mouser Electronics 500ft. roll $150 Deltrons/wTeflon $4.99 each) there are audible differences in cables. Put one in the EPL/Tape loop of your preamp and listen. Leave it there for a week or so then push the button to bypass it. I'm curious as to what, if anything you hear or don't hear. Instead of berating someone who disagrees, you should investigate. Try borrowing one from your local high end shop. They are always willing to try to convince someone so they can sell their overpriced cables. Incredible mark up on those things. |
| Hi Joe: | pctower
Sep 24, 2003 2:36 PM | | Hi Joe:
I think your post goes to the heart of the debate. For those of us whose interest in the Great Cable Debate is strictly academic, ultimately it is the level of enjoyment that we derive from our listening sessions that dictates our own personal decisions.
I may be wrong, but it seems to me that many of the regulars here would not use non-stock cables even if their use resulted in a subjectively material improvement in their listening enjoyment. They appear to me to guided solely by the need for political correctness from a scientific viewpoint, as opposed to subjective enjoyment of their systems. But, to each his own.
My big beef is the condescending nature so many of them display towards those who do not follow the naysayer party line.
I will say that the lack of objective evidence of sonic differences is of interest to me. However, the placebo argument simply has never made sense to me in the context of what I know to be the experiences of subjectivists. The placebo effect is certainly real, and I can see how it could control ones initial judgment in a sighted comparison of a new cable against ones current cable.
But I, and most other subjectivists I know, have rejected the vast majority of new cables we try. Moreover, once a new cable has resulted in a perception of material improvement, that perception can last for years. I seriously question the power of the placebo effect to cause a false sense of improvement which remains consistent over time. Moreover, while it is entirely unreliable from any scientific viewpoint, my own personal experience tells me that sonic memory of the particular characteristics of any given cable can span a long period of time.
In short, I continue to have significant doubts about the influence of the placebo effect on the typical experiences of subjectivist audiophiles, whose patterns of trial and error and long-term use and decision making is far more complex that the simple model of bringing home a new cable and thinking it is better due solely to ABEs.
Above all, I feel very uncomfortable with the absolutist, dogmatic advice that is often foisted on newcomers here. I have no problem with telling newcomers about the lack of evidence. However, I do object to suggestions that there have been many scientifically reliable DBTs which produced null results.
I also object to the obsessive and paranoid efforts to prevent newcomers from at least trying cables for themselves to see if they result in improved enjoyment. Most seasoned audiophiles, let alone newcomers, dont have the time, interest or resources to engage in reliable blind testing. If all of the professionals in the industry, regardless of their beliefs, havent been able to conduct reliable blind tests on a fair cross-section of cables, how can we expect newcomers to do so. Accordingly, if newcomers do try cables it will almost certainly be under non-control conditions. But, so what? If they try a new cable and it increases their enjoyment, and they spend responsibly within their budget, who cares? And what business is it of anyone other than that particular person?
To me, the exchange between Dan Banquer and Commuteman in the following sub-thread is a classic example of the over-reaching by naysayers to which I take issue:
http://www.audioasylum.com/scripts/t.pl?f=cables&m=82609
BTW, ever notice how dead this place gets when people like you and I arent around. AR should pay us a stipend just to keep this sleepy hallow from going totally comatose.
Best regards,
Phil |
| You are so right | JoeE SP9
Sep 24, 2003 5:49 PM | | Hi: pctower
Some of the contributors act like they are the final word when we know they are not. I live in Phila. and am able to borrow many types of higher end cables for comparison. With my rig I hear differences. When I changed from double runs of Kimber TC8 to my own CAT 5 Ultra's my girlfriend noticed the difference right away. After they broke in (100+hrs) she said she liked them better. So do I. The differences I hear also relate to capacitors inductors and resistors. There are also subtle differences between MOSFET's, Bipolars and Thermionic devices (tubes).
I have participated in DBT's and have always felt that the subtle things I hear or don't hear require TIME to be discernable. I have been accused of being deluded and a Luddite. As a trained engineer I was taught to believe in the numbers. Unfortunatly the numbers caused me to listen less. Now that I have matured I realize I have only myself to satisfy. It just happens that my lady friends really like the sound of my rig. Along with increased age has come the realization that we should listen to women and their comments about sound. They have much more sensitive hearing than males. They are just not as articulate in an audiophile sense as men. I mean no disrespect to the ladies. I wish my hearing was as discerning.
After I started believing my ears instead of spec sheets I went back to mostly tubes and couldn't be happier. I also started listening more.
I am only interested in one thing. Better reproduction of the music I like. If my ears tell me to buy some exotic expensive cable I will do so. I will then sit in my sweet spot and try not to grin too much.
BTW I enjoy causing a ruckus. Some of those who are new to this hobby can get discouraged by the "naysayers". To those newbies I say "listen to your own ears". This hobby is supposed to be fun, both in the listening and in the assembling of your rig. So don't be afraid to say what you hear or think you hear. After all it is your money, rig and music.
I also sometimes contribute to AA. My moniker there is the same as here.
In the movie Starship Troopers there is a TV ad that says "Do you think you have psychic powers? Then maybe you do."
If you think you hear differences. Then maybe you do.
The TNT discussion group on Yahoo seems to have less of the naysayers and more open minds.
Keep listening and enjoying.
JoeE |
| You are so right | mtrycrafts
Sep 24, 2003 10:51 PM | | b Some of the contributors act like they are the final word when we know they are not.
Never said I am the final word. But then you have no evidence that you know though as you would have to have supporting evidence of your claims. I don't see any.
b With my rig I hear differences.
You perceived something. Your brain is capable of filling in needed or missing information.
b When I changed from double runs of Kimber TC8 to my own CAT 5 Ultra's my girlfriend noticed the difference right away. After they broke in (100+hrs) she said she liked them better.
All under bias controlled listening? Statistically analized results? Doubt it.
b have always felt that the subtle things I hear or don't hear require TIME to be discernable.
There is no evidence for this but to the contrary.
b They have much more sensitive hearing than males.
No evidence that they have better ability to differentiate. They may have lower tolerance to higher volumes. Doesn't mean they can better distinguis differences. Evidence is not there, unless you can cite some research. Plenty of alien abduction cases out there.
b To those newbies I say "listen to your own ears".
A foolis advice as your ears can fool you too easylly. And more foolish to blindly accept it as gospel.
b In the movie Starship Troopers there is a TV ad that says "Do you think you have psychic powers? Then maybe you do."
Ah, that is coming from an engineer? How easilly the baloney detection bag is left at the office.
James Randi has $1 million in prize for a real psychic.
b If you think you hear differences. Then maybe you do.
Or not.
b and more open minds.
Ah, a code word for not to be investigated, challanged but to be believed on blind faith. Know what Carl Sagan has to say about open minds? Everything might fall into it. If all has meaning, nothing has value. |
| Hi Phil | jneutron
Sep 24, 2003 7:00 PM | | To me, they are all green...yaysayers...naysayers....
Green....
How's the new job? I hope all is well..
Gonna hit Bermuda next month...definitely gotta find some bicycles.. although it's not Nantucket...and I don't think there are cobblestones in Bermuda..
Same girl...same feelings..havin fun..absolutely enjoying her company...
Honestly...the extremes are just that..too extreme..
both have faults..both have points...
Watched a triathalon coupla weeks ago..very interesting..
My girlfriend had two daughters and a son in law doing it..definitely fun to watch....get this....
Her son in law, getting ready, stepped on his swim goggles..broke them...
Another contestant saw that...approached him...offered a spare pair of goggles....there was no possibility that they would be returned, there was 1200 contestants, they were offered as a never to be returned "gift".
One of her daughters...started the bike ride, her chain fell off the front chainring.....a gentleman (contestant), stopped, put her chain back on...then left...
I gotta be honest...from what I've seen.. these triathletes have their sh#t together...enough so that I am training for the next one..
The Naysayers and yaysayers could learn a thing or two from the triathelites....
Cheers, John |
| Hi John | pctower
Sep 27, 2003 7:28 AM | | Good to hear from you.
The new job is great. I'm surrounded by talented, professional people who are also extremely easy to work with. They take their work-product very seriously, but they don't take themselves too serious. I'm having more fun practicing law than I ever had. My page is about to go up on the firm's website, and if the film in the camera was defective and didn't really record my true appearance, I might post the site.
As for triatheletes, I have no question at all that they come from a different planet in a different universe than the one I imigrated from. I truly stand (or usually sit) in awe of them.
My wife is back in your neck of the woods this weekend, visiting our son in Manhattan. They just bought a place up near 90th on the westside, and she wanted to see it for herself. Our son is communiting to Armock and from all I can tell making his presence known at IBM headquarters. His wife works in the city for Pfizer and is also doing extremely well. They both graduated from Harvard Business School last year and are quite a couple
I'll probably be back in the city for Christmas. Any chance we could get together?
BTW, I continue to be amazed at your patience and tenacity over at AA. As far as I can tell, Peter is the only person left who is worth attempting a dialog with. You truly are the most professional, well-mannered and fair person I have encountered on any of the audio boards. |
| Hi John | jneutron
Sep 29, 2003 7:02 AM | | Glad to hear the job is good..I know for a fact that getting up in the morning and wanting to go to work because you enjoy it is one of the most important ingredients.
Yah, my camera suffers the same..
Not sure about christmas yet, but that would be fun...
As for the AA group: every so often, when I think it's hopeless there, somebody inevitably chirps up and reinforces what I've been saying w/r to personalities...so it's not entirely me pissin into the wind..
Peter is an interesting person..He wavers between "yaysayer" and science based, which I do like..I wish there were more there willing to stick their necks out with discussion of science based possibilities.
As for me...I'm just insane..And, I'm seriously considering entering a triathalon next year.
Cheers, John |
| Yep.... | FLZapped
Sep 26, 2003 11:27 AM | | i I may be wrong, but it seems to me that many of the regulars here would not use non-stock cables even if their use resulted in a subjectively material improvement in their listening enjoyment. They appear to me to guided solely by the need for political correctness from a scientific viewpoint, as opposed to subjective enjoyment of their systems. But, to each his own.
You're wrong....
-Bruce |
| More subjectivism | mtrycrafts
Sep 24, 2003 10:36 PM | | b Instead of berating someone who disagrees, you should investigate.
There is nothing to investigate. There is no DBT data to support your speculation, even if you do have an EE, it is speculation on your part as I am sure you didn't do DBT listening. There is just no such data available, or that can be demonstrated by ANYONE. Many have tried, none have succeeded. |
| More subjectivism | JoeE SP9
Sep 25, 2003 2:52 PM | | The data is in the listening. If you think so much of it buy an ABX box perform the tests and publish your results. If there is any data show it. Please read what I said. I don't care about anything but whether or not I'm happy. If that is nothing more than speculation I don't care. All I know is that once I stopped worrying about numbers and listened I liked what I heard. Once again try what I suggested with the EPL/Tape loop. |
| More subjectivism | mtrycrafts
Sep 26, 2003 12:19 AM | | b The data is in the listening. If you think so much of it buy an ABX box perform the tests and publish your results.
Nothing more to be published. The results are in. But, you claimed differences, you need to demonstrate, you have the burden.
b I don't care about anything but whether or not I'm happy.
But that is not what you posted. You made testable claims and no supporting data of value.
b listened I liked what I heard.
Ah, but that has nothing to do with worrying about numbers or not. Just an excuse. I don't have that problem.
b Once again try what I suggested with the EPL/Tape loop.
Once again, there is nothing to try. There is nothing there. If there were, it would have been demonstrated by now over the past 25 years. Nothing there. |
| Less subjectivism. please | RobotCzar
Sep 26, 2003 7:19 AM | | There is no data in listening. What are you talking about?
Yes, there is data and it does not support your claim. There also is data that claims like yours are unreliable.
It is good that you have stpped worring and just settled on being happy. One wonders what motivates you to write responses and make unfounded claims in that case.
There are no significant audible differences in cables. (See anybody can simply make statements.) There are several scientifically proven reasons that people might believe they hear differences when there are none. That is to say, several reasons why you can just listen and trust your ears. You have addressed none of these reasons. So, why should we listen to you? Do you at least see why we don't?
A subjective claim is only good for the person making it by definition. |
| Less subjectivism. please | pctower
Sep 27, 2003 7:39 AM | | b There is no data in listening. What are you talking about?
He was taking poetic license. Geez, he comes here, says that in the past he worried about the numbers, but now just does what makes him happy and increases his own listening enjoyment, and you guys jump all over him.
There's no moderator here to enforce the party line. There doesn't need to be. The regulars take care of that.
BTW, RADAR, I am glad to see you back. I don't always agree with you, but you force me to think and for that I thank you. That's what I hope to get out of my now infrequent visits here. |
| There is no censorship here | RobotCzar
Sep 29, 2003 7:33 AM | | You repeated, rather pathetic attempts to equate an open forum to one that actively censors ideas contrary to that of the moderator is hopeless. Here everyone can say what they please and make as big an ass of themselves ass they wish. You can't "convince" people otherwise with your posts.
There is no "party line"; there are facts, evidence, logic and common sense. It can't be helped that these do not always align with your viewpoint. Unlike legal arguments, scientfic laws are unchanging and there for all to see. More words and longer-winded emotional pleas do not carry the day. |
| More subjectivism | FLZapped
Sep 26, 2003 11:25 AM | | Fine, you like listening, great, but it is not a fully rational way of approaching this and is a poor recomendation by itself. People waste tons of money buying on just what they think they hear, especially after they've been well greased by ficticious claims.
Your tape-loop experiment is flawed. Was the equipment characterized first to make sure it was sufficient to do this test? What about the next guy's piece of equipment. It could either be worse, or better than yours, no way of knowing unless it is first characterized. You have no idea if it introduced some new distortion, level shift, phase anomaly, etc.
We've had other engineers here saying the same thing and when pressed they couldn't back up their claims either, or were as sloppy as you are in your methodology yielding equally useless results.
As an engineer for you to ignore well known psychological factors that could easliy color one's listening, is simply irresponsible.
You want to be irresponsible, go over to AA, where they don't let the facts get in the way either.
As for your lack of listening, that is just a convienient excuse. Just as many audiophiles at the other extreme spend all their time <i>listening to their equipment</i>. They get no real enjoyment either as they are always looking for a flaw that they need to correct by simply throwing more money at their system because they <b>THINK</b> they hear something amiss without any factual basis for it. Some of what they do is actually hazardous.
You appear, to me, to be heading that direction and I would say you need to find a better balance.
-Bruce |
| More subjectivism | JoeE SP9
Sep 25, 2003 2:56 PM | | Excuuuuse me. I thought some of you had a sense of humor. Not only are you intolerant you're no fun. |
| More subjectivism | FLZapped
Sep 26, 2003 11:29 AM | | So far, I haven't seen anything funny, other than you are out in left field...
Oh...
HAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHHAHHAA.....
There, feel better?
-Bruce |
| More subjectivism | pctower
Sep 27, 2003 7:53 AM | | b Not only are you intolerant you're no fun.
Don't know if its web boards in general, or audio specifically, but from what I've seen tolerance is virtually unheard of on the audio boards, and a sense of humor almost as rate. Have never tried TNT, however. |
| Guess they never tried Belden which flatly outs it to shame | Norm Strong
Sep 25, 2003 5:40 PM | | Do you mean by that that the mere fact that the cable is made by Belden is sufficient to obtain these benefits? Doesn't make any difference what the part number is--or what the use is? |
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