|   Do Naysayers hear cheers from the BB when they.......... | Abex
Oct 4, 2003 1:17 PM | | Do Naysayers hear cheers from the BB when they think they have saved someone from not trying another wire in their systems!
I feel for those who come here for advice just to read that nothing matters in wires.I honestly think they,the Naysayers, revel in the thought that they have all the answers without trying different cables and just duped or saved others. I heard ignorance is bliss and I think that applies here especially for those who settle for not testing for themselves to see what might work best in their systems.
Does it feel like scoring the winning touchdown or hitting the game winning homer in the ninth? Do you hear the cheers of the BB or just imagine it in your minds?
Do any of you have a fan club you can all go to in order to pat each other on the back or ass for some?
Who do you adore and do you have that guy "Doc the Tool ,I mean Dr. O'Toole" hanging up on your wall?
Does he fulfill all your fantasies?
Do you say your prayers each night to the Tool that thou shalt not covert ones ears by hearing differences.
Is he your idol?
Do you keep a photo of him in your wallet?
Do any of you get together for reciever shootouts?
Do any of you get together for Walmart and Ratshack Cable shootouts. Oh! Sorry they both sound the same,same rolled off highs!
Just a few of the questions people that hear differences want to know!If anyone can think of others please post as I know I forgot a few.
TIA |
| You sound like a salesman in an audio store.... | skeptic
Oct 4, 2003 3:32 PM | | ...who doesn't expect much of a bonus this year. Or those big fat commissions from selling those high markup wires you save the high pressure sales pitch for. That and the extended warrantees.
I'd like to think that I somehow contributed to that. That I persuaded some of your would be customers to think twice before they shelled out those extra bucks for that overpriced crap that's sold at the last minute to those poor suckers who think that they won't get their money's worth out of that nice low markup sound system they just bought if they don't spring for that extra few hundred in wires too. I'd like to think that I helped someone use his money for things that actually will give use and pleasure to him and not something to just look at and wonder why he ever bought it in the first place. But alas, I'm sorry to say that there's a sucker born every minute as PT Barnum said and there are enough out there to keep the wiremaking boys in new Mercedes and their stooges selling for them in the audio stores in new Hondas.
On the other hand, maybe you're not one of those after all. Maybe you are one of the ones who walked out of the store with the rag and just doesn't like admitting that he's been had by a guy who just ordered a new Honda Civic for Christmas. With your money. |
| I wonder too. I also wonder how it would be any different if... | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 5, 2003 1:37 AM | | ... you'd worded it this way (the words I've changed are not in bold text, the bold stuff is your own words).
b Do
Yeasayers
b hear cheers from the BB when they think they have
talked
b someone
into
b trying another wire in their systems!
b I feel for those who
go to cult forums
b for advice just to read that
all the BS actually
b matters in wires.I honestly think they,the
Yeasayers
b , revel in the thought that they have all the answers without trying different cables
in totally uncontrolled tests
b and just duped or saved others. I heard ignorance is bliss and I think that applies here especially for those who settle for not testing for themselves to see what might work best in their systems.
b Does it feel like scoring the winning touchdown or hitting the game winning homer in the ninth? Do you hear the cheers of the BB or just imagine it in your minds?
b Do any of you have a fan club you can all go to in order to pat each other on the back or ass for some?
b Who do you adore and do you have that guy "
Jon
b the
Megalomaniac
b ,I mean
Jon Risch
b hanging up on your wall?
b Does he fulfill all your fantasies?
b Do you say your prayers each night to the Risch that thou shalt not covert ones
faith
b by
running controlled tests.
b Is he your idol?
b Do you keep a photo of him in your wallet?
b Do any of you get together for reciever shootouts?
b Do any of you get together for Walmart and Ratshack Cable shootouts. Oh! Sorry they both sound the same,same rolled off highs!
b Just a few of the questions people that
run controlled tests
b want to know!If anyone can think of others please post as I know I forgot a few.
Can you answer your own questions when they're truned around and applied to your religion?
R.O. |
| I wonder too. I also wonder how it would be any different if... | Abex
Oct 5, 2003 6:35 AM | | *Very different for the yeasayers because most cables do present different traits. As for having a favorite It would have to be my own, but I know there are cables that are better,but at what price so I do not idolise myself. None that I wish to pay for unless I were to build them myself to save on cost.
I have BTW tried most of the stuff which Naysyers say is the best using Ratshack & Walmart as examples. To bad Naysayers did not try to see weather there are differences in cables. Most do not and I suspect that many of the systems they own are not up to the task to present much differences in cables. |
| YOU have done NO testing of cables ... | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 5, 2003 11:02 AM | | ... under controlled conditions. Your own words prove this beyond any doubt. The most obvious proof was your statement that Radio Shack interconnects roll off the high-frequency response. Not even your cult leaders make that claim, because they're smart enough to know that roll-off is easily measured to a resolution of better than 0.1 dB. You either made that one up yourself, or came to the conclusion through uncontrolled subjective testing that allowed your biases to influence your results. Either way, it was the kind of statement that tells everyone that you need a reminder. Never forget. It is better to remain silent and be though a fool, that to speak and remove all doubt.
If you're going to try to support the cult myths at least you could try to get them right.
R.O. |
| Testing an IC for high frequency rolloff is easy | skeptic
Oct 7, 2003 12:47 PM | | Just stick it between the video output of a vcr and the video input of a tv set. If the picture appears fine and the color appears fine, you know that it will easily pass a 6 mhz NTSC video composite signal. This being the case, it is easy to project that there can't be any hf rolloff at 20 khz which is one three hundreth the bandwidth. Want to do an AB? Compare the rf modulated cable or antenna feed from the vcr's rf output connected to the tv's rf input with the demodulated video signal above. Switch the TV between the video input and tuner set to channel 3. Bet you can't see any difference. I couldn't. |
| Amidst your tongue in cheek post... | DMK
Oct 5, 2003 7:42 AM | | ...actually lies a good point.
b those who settle for not testing for themselves to see what might work best in their systems.
Not testing for different sonic signatures in audio gear makes one a Believer. Those folks have elevated a belief to the level of fact. In many cases such as cables, that is likely an accurate assessment. But many of those same believers have taken their belief system to include everything but speakers in an audio system sounding identical if they measure identical. This is not a fact but a belief, and an inaccurate one.
I agree that different pieces of audio gear must be tested in a controlled manner to change a belief to a fact. Without doing so, they are merely using other facts to arrive at a logical conclusion. Unfortunately, logic doesn't always equal fact. |
| Amidst your tongue in cheek post... | skeptic
Oct 5, 2003 12:09 PM | | "Not testing for different sonic signatures in audio gear makes one a Believer"
If by sonic signiture you mean frequency response, it is one of the easiest things to change. A graphic equalizer does it predictibly, reliably, and at low cost. Audio professionals know what amateurs reject, namely that this single powerful piece of equipment is de riguer in every modern professional installation because is solves a multitude of problems. Trying to alter the frequency response of a sound system by experimenting with cables is one of the most expensive and futile efforts anyone can undertake. Even if it works and the cost is acceptable, it is completely uncontrollable in degree and specificity of effect and entirely unpredictable as to how it would affect one system as opposed to another.
The fact that audiophiles cannot successfully harness the powr of graphic equalizers demonstrates that they have neither the patience nor the ear training to make real improvement in their home rigs. The fact that they reject it on theoretical grounds as well demonstrates their utter ignorance of audio technology as this device is used in one form or another in virtually every step of recording and most steps of reproduction from phonograph and tape head preamplification to loudspeaker circuits.
The people who manufacture and sell expensive audio cables foster and prey upon this igorance. In fact it is essential to their continued success. |
| Funny you mention an equalizer | DMK
Oct 5, 2003 6:28 PM | | I'm ready to take that plunge and funny also because it'll be just the second piece of audio gear I've purchased in over three years (the other being a phono cartridge). I've got the time (we'll see about the patience!) to play with one and a friend of mine gets great results with his. Any recommendations on what brands to try out? |
| Funny you mention an equalizer | skeptic
Oct 6, 2003 9:28 AM | | An equalizer is an extremely powerful piece of audio equipment for changing the sound of a system. However it requires a great deal of patience and care in using it. What brand you buy is probably much less important than how you use it. I don't think I'd have the patience to work with a 1/3 octave equalizer (27 to 30 sliders per channel.) I did not have satisfactory results using a pink noise generator and a calibrated microphone. I had to use my own ears.
This is my advice based on my own experience.
Listen to a lot of live unamplified music and try to get recordings of the same type of music. Try to adjust both channels to have the same settings. Adjust slowly and cautiously making only one or two changes at a time and then in small increments. Listen for a while and see if you think things have gotten more or less accurate. Write down the settings and dates of your adjustments so that if you change them and want to go back to them, you have a way. Memory of all of these settings is very fallible. It's very easy to forget. Be extremely patient. Sometimes getting completely satisfactory results takes months or years. Sometimes you go backwards. Improvements are made slowly and incrementally. Switching to bypass will show you how far you've come. (Don't be fooled if in bypass, the sound is louder. That make no difference and has nothing to do with whether it's more or less accurate.) If you listen carefully, you will see that very small changes can make a very big difference.
Although our understanding of audio equipment and available measuring equipment have improved substantially over the years, the knowledge that there are two principle types of distortion still holds true based on the unaltered mathematical analysis of periodic and non periodic waveforms, namely linear or frequency response/phase response and non linear, harmonic distortion, intermodulation distortion, and hum and noise. Nobody has ever demonstrated that different wires produce different measured nonlinear distortion with the only exception I'm aware of being John Curl's report that the difference between the best and worst case harmonic distortion in interconnects was minus 120 db versus minus 135 db of the seventh harmonic of 5 khz. This of course is completely inaudible. Reducing susceptability to hum and noise can be easily accomplished for even the least expensive wires. Therefore only frequency response distortion could explain any possible difference between the audible effects of one wire and another if such a difference is ever proven. And as will be obvious in use, changing the frequency response of a sound system using an equalizer is far easier and more predictable than any change which might be made by swapping wires. |
| re: Do Naysayers hear cheers from the BB when they.......... | Monstrous Mike
Oct 6, 2003 8:20 AM | | First of all, wires do matter. You need the proper wire for the signal it will be carrying. Wires do have electrical properties so the frequency of the signal, the level of the signal, the length of the run, the EMI environment, etc. all play a factor in choosing the correct wire for a given application. So the myth that any old wire will do is just that, a myth. This myth is attached to naysayers and rpetuated by yeasayers to make us out to be deaf, dumb and ignorant.
My message of advice has always been that when spending large amounts of cash to upgrade you system, it would likely be more beneficial to sink that money into upgraded speakers, acoustical room treatments or even better speaker positioning. These have much more of an effect on the sound of a system than exotic cables, IMHO.
It don't get jollies giving out such opinions, it is actually what I do for a living. I have many years of experience in wiring electronic systems in naval vessels and I am just trying to pass along some of my knowledge.
It seems some people actually get offended at the advice I give and there is nothing I can do about that. It's getting to the point where I may not give out this advice any more simply because some people just don't to hear it. I take pride in my profession and it would be unethical to give out incorrect information and unsupported advice.
From an engineering perspective, there is severe lack of application of standards and proper testing in the audio world. Marketing plays the major role and if you believe the marketing, nothing I can say will change your mind. That's fine by me.
BTW, I have done informal wire testing for my own personal benefit. There are no solid scientific conclusions I can present other than to say I found no evidence of cable differences. |
| re: Do Naysayers hear cheers from the BB when they.......... | woodman
Oct 6, 2003 6:51 PM | | Just what are you referring to as "the BB"? If you mean BestBuy, then your post makes absolutely no sense at all. If on the other hand, you mean Bulletin Board, then it helps matters a little bit - but not much.
The whole post still comes across as an angry assault against those that don't share your belief system, and are unwilling to be duped by the unknowing and yea, even the unscrupulous, who try to convince others of audio "facts" that have no scientific, rational, physical support to hold them up.
They say that "ignorance is bliss". Evidently, you're ecstatically and blissfully happy with your wires. Dat's nice.
woodman |
| Hi Woodman. | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 6, 2003 8:10 PM | | The anger is evident in the post, and I wonder if the guy even knows what it is that has him so upset.
He seems to think that people who do (evil?) things like testing audio equipment under blind conditions are out to get him (and others like him). It is as if trying to understand and help others understand were an anathema to him. The post was actually very revealing. How many statements can you find that aren't based on one or more misconceptions?
That someone could get so upset over the fact that others prefer science to religion is no surprise, and this man is obviously exhibiting the cult mentality we've talked about so often here. If he'd just ignore the parts of reality that he doesn't like he'd be happier, but he's got to go out and confront it because he's angry. Reminds me of Jon, and I feel a little sorry for the guy.
Do you think he's received an education that is serving him well?
R.O. |
| Everything about this post goes to show just how | woodman
Oct 6, 2003 10:57 PM | | insecure he really is in his beliefs.
b "Do you think he's received an education that is serving him well?"
Obviously NOT! He's a walking example of how our educational system is doing a piss-poor job of it. The first thing that should be taught to our youth is - not to take anything they see.read,or hear as "gospel" and BELIEVE it without question. In fact, question EVERYTHING.
When I first read this post, I thought he was talking about BestBuy when he said "BB". If that WAS who he was referring to, the whole premise is dumb, dumb, DUMB! It would be inside out and backwards. Any retailer today that hears any of us telling the truth about wires and cables is certainly not gonna cheer. Quite the opposite ... wires and cables are one of the few things that they can make serious profits on (as long as there are no "naysayers" around to pee on the parade).
woodman |
| Back when I was a young man ... | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 7, 2003 3:58 PM | | ... there were things called Bulletin Boards Systems, or a BBS for short. I thought he was talking about audio forums like Audioholics or any of the others that take a more rigorous approach to audio. In fact, I thought he was talking about the participants of this forum specifically. Why else would he ask the question(s) here?
The man is angry because his gurus can't provide any valid support for their mythologies. He sees those who don't follow blindly as the source of his discontent, and apparently isn't capable of dealing with his situation in an appropriate manner. I tend to think that if he'd been taught to solve problems, rather than accept and memorize answers, he might be able to see things a bit more clearly.
I agree totally with all your comments. The fact that we the people have let our educational system deteriorate to this level is embarrassing.
R.O. |
| Very succinctly (and correctly) put, Radar ... | woodman
Oct 7, 2003 5:35 PM | | ... I concur 106.74692% with everything you said!
He is indeed angry - probably angry enough (if he lives in California) to go out and do something totally stooooopid like vote for Ahnuld Swartzenfugger for governor! Oh my ...
woodman |
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