|   Query.... | entrope
Oct 7, 2003 2:01 PM | | If better tubes, better capacitors, better resistors, better switches, better potentiometers, better air coils, et al. improve a piece of equipment's (preamp, amp, CDP, TT, speaker, etc.) ability to accurately reproduce source material- Why doesn't wire? |
| Wires are not made up of all that stuff.... | Monstrous Mike
Oct 7, 2003 2:57 PM | | At least not any wires I know of.
Listening to wires is like drinking wine. Wine may taste better when it is in Waterford crystal chalice rather than a beer mug. It's the same wine and really actually tastes the same but rather it is enjoyed more (at least by connaisseurs) when consumed from the proper vessel.
So music is the wine and wires are the glass. You only actually screw it up if your glass is dirty. Otherwise it should sound the same although you may appreciate it more when using an expensive glass (wire).
And of course, double blind testing would prove this theory and that's why it is hated so. |
| Wires are not made up of all that stuff.... | okiemax
Oct 7, 2003 8:03 PM | | There are reasons for wine glass shapes. Glasses for sparkling wines(flutes) are tall and narrow with tapered tops to minimize exposure to the air, thus making the bubbles last longer. Glasses for reds and whites are more round in shape, but also have tapered tops to concentrate the aroma under the drinker's nose. The quality of the glass may not matter, but the shape does. |
| Wires are not made up of all that stuff.... | Rockwell
Oct 7, 2003 10:06 PM | | Is that a theory, or has anyone proven that they can taste a difference between two glass shapes? |
| Wires are not made up of all that stuff.... | okiemax
Oct 7, 2003 11:59 PM | | I don't know of much research on the shape of wine glasses. A University of Tenessee Knoxville study claimed wine glass shape can affect wine chemistry, but only one of their tasters could detect the difference. These were not professional tasters. I believe you can find a summary of the study on NewScientist.com.
Reidel, the Austrian crystal maker, claims their wine glass designs are based on how different parts of the tongue are sensitive to different tastes(e.g.,sweet, salty, acidic). The shapes of their glasses are supposed to enhance the enjoyment of wine. I have my doubts. If one of their glasses can be bought at a reasonable price, I'll give it a try.
I have opinions on glass shapes based on my taste preferences. I have always thought Champagne and other sparkling wines go flat faster in a shallow glass than a tall glass, and prefer the latter for that reason. If you drink fast enough, however, it probably doesn't matter. I also prefer a stemmed glass for chilled wines because the stem keeps my hand from warming the wine. I'm not sure whether tapered tops of glasses concentrate aroma for me-- I'll have to experiment. |
| Exactly.... | Monstrous Mike
Oct 8, 2003 8:54 AM | | Just like different wines need (or have some benefit from) different shaped glasses, different audio signals need different types of cable.
<b>The quality of the glass may not matter, but the shape does.</b>
My point exactly. Once you have the proper wire, the signal should be carried correctly and any quality improvement or increased expense in the wire does not automatically mean the signal is carried better.
That's why I used this analogy. If we take a red wine for example, and grab two glasses of the same shape where one is a basic glass goblet and the other is hand blown by Henri from Bordeaux, I highly doubt the wine would taste different between the two glasses.
Although there will always be people who will claim: "I simply will not drink my red wine without using Henri's crystal glass" (said with pinky and nose both held up a little too much). Hmmm, I wonder if audiophiles are like this? |
| Your analogy is not a good one | skeptic
Oct 8, 2003 9:16 AM | | As a wine lover, I would say that there is still much research to be done on the relationship between the size and shape of wine glasses and the subjective taste of wines served in them (among countless other factors.) Nobody less than Robert M. Parker, acknowledged by many to be the world's greatest wine critic (and possibly the greatest critic of anything) has endorsed the use of Reidel wine glasses for greater enjoyment of wine. BTW, these glasses are not cheap. A single Bordeaux goblet can cost $80 and is no less fragile than other fine crystal while a cheap wine goblet can cost only $2. BTW, I believe that for his tasting notes which he publishes, he uses international standard "INAO" wine goblets.
Wire is an entirely different matter. It has been researched and studied endlessly and while the suitibility of some wires for some applications is different than for others, for ordinary audio siganls, normal coax and zip cord and for power to audio equipment, ordinary power cords will not be bettered in performance as evidinced by any research I am aware of. It's my guess that the major audiophile wire manufacturers have done their own unpublished research and already know this much to their frustration. |
| Your analogy is not a good one | Monstrous Mike
Oct 8, 2003 12:17 PM | | You know, after about a bottle and a half of Beaujolais, my wires start to sound much better.
Try to find an analogy for that. |
| re: Query.... | skeptic
Oct 7, 2003 6:03 PM | | Performance of all ordinary wire is so far beyond the requirements of audio systems that further improvement is inaudible. Those that claim improvement have never even proved their products perform differently, let alone better. There is no psycometric proof based on actual listening that more expensive wires perform better in actual scientifically verifiable (repeatable) and fair tests, and there is no proof based on electrical measurements that these wires perform differently either. Given that they all cost more money than the inexpensive products they aim to replace, the burden of proof is on the people who manufacture and sell them to prove their claims. After more than 30 years on the market, they have failed to do so. On the contrary, those tests which have been performed show no usable difference. The scientific name describing people who would buy these products in light of the lack of such proof is termed "sucker." |
| Metal | entrope
Oct 7, 2003 6:25 PM | | Isn't at least some part or most of the structure of most of the electrical components listed above that do improve reproduction (if you acknowlege that they can) made of metal like speaker wire is comprised of metal?
Or are you saying no matter what quality the metal is the improvement it makes is beyond measurement? If so, why doesn't that apply to all electrical parts? |
| Metal ? Wire ? What's the difference ? Whaaaaaa ? | woodman
Oct 7, 2003 11:51 PM | | b "Isn't at least some part or most of the structure of most of the electrical components listed above that do improve reproduction (if you acknowlege that they can) made of metal like speaker wire is comprised of metal?"
The electronic parts that you cited in your original post are not likely to have any meaningful impact on sonic quality, in spite of what some people want others to believe. There was a proposal made for an economical stereo system some months ago from a fella who obviously doesn't actually KNOW anything about the subject. But he claimed that by replacing the capacitors (he didn't specify just which ones) in the amplifier, it made a "night and day" difference. This is baloney, poppycock, bullshit. The performance difference between various capacitors, resistors, switches, potentiometers, etc. are so tiny, minuscule, and in the final analysis - meaningless, that it's just a joke (on those that choose to beleieve in them that is).
b "Or are you saying no matter what quality the metal is the improvement it makes is beyond measurement? If so, why doesn't that apply to all electrical parts?"
No, I'm not saying that. I am saying however that whatever the level of improvement that's obtainable with different wire - while possibly measurable - is NOT likely to be audible. At least not to any degree that is meaningful.
woodman |
| Metal | skeptic
Oct 8, 2003 6:13 AM | | I'm not sure I understand your question or what relevance it has. Different electrical components are made of different materials. For example, resistors can be made from carbon a semi conductor which is not a metal. Transistors are made from silicon a semiconductor (chemically between metals and non metals) with carefully introduced impurities of both metals and non metals such as phosphorous, arsenic, and aluminium. Most wire is made of copper. Some exotic types used by a few wire manufacturers are made at least in part of silver. Solder used to connect electronic components is made of tin and lead. Capacitors are made in part of metal but a non metal, the diaelectric must be a non metal such as plastic, mica, or ceramic. Inductors and transformers are made of metal wire but have non metal insulation applied to them.
The properties of various types of wire, their suitability for various purposes, their performance and limitations have been studied by many professional groups from many different aspect for 75 years or more. Some of these groups are the International Radio League which evolved into the IEEE, ASTM, ANSI, UL, NFPA, and many others including those directly associated with the wire manufacturing industry itself. It is remarkable how much is known about wire on both a theoretical and actual level through complex mathematical modeling and countless experiments documenting performance and corroborating those models. Anyone who has something new to contribute must convince these groups that their prior knowledge is inadequate, incomplete, or just plain wrong. So far as I know, in over 30 years of offering products to the market, not even one maunufacturer of "audiophile" wires has ever even attempted such a feat. If they tried to convince these people with the kind of arguements they use to sell their products to audiophiles with, they would laughed off in the first 30 seconds. And they know it. |
| Quality of components | entrope
Oct 8, 2003 7:25 AM | | in the structure of a piece of electronics makes no difference? Is that what I am hearing (pun) from woodman?
Is it the only the way the components are structured in relation to each other and the signal path that makes a Sim Audio amp sound better (to my ear) than an Emerson. |
| Quality of components | skeptic
Oct 8, 2003 9:05 AM | | I don't know if that is Woodman's view but it is not my view. The result of different methods of manufacturing a particular electronic device will give different results depending on both the quality of materials and the particulars of how it is manufactured or assembled. Some parts are more suitable for their particular function than others. In the case of wires, what I am saying that the ordinary products we have been and are accostomed to finding in them, ordinary power cords and plugs, ordinary coaxial wire with RCA connectors, ordinary 16 gage zip cord are so well suited for their application in audio that further improvement in design (at increased cost) yields NO audible improvement in performance. For example, you wouldn't pay $500 a pound for chemically pure salt to cook with when ordinary table salt at $1 a pound tastes, smells, and works exactly the same. But in a laboratory, a box of Diamond Crystal which would be perfectly OK for dinner wouldn't be acceptable for use in a mass spectrometer or in gas chromatography. You wouldn't strap a 25,000 horsepower jet engine to the roof of your car to power you to work in the morning but if you are building a B52 you need eight of them. Engineers deternmine what makes sense in light of actual needs, not because the specifications are more impressive or someone has an emotional attachment for a product of ludicrous proportions. But that is what the people who would sell you audiophile wire are trying to get you to do. However, even there they are not making actual performance claims because if you read their literature carefully, you will see that rarely if ever do they give you actual specifications of their product versus the competition let alone tell a neophite how to interpret those specifications in light of the requirements of a sound system. They might tell you ordinary wire contains oxygen, a non conductor. But they don't tell you what electrical or audible improvement you will get with their more expensive oxygen free copper wire. That is left for you to imagine for yourself. In reality of course, the answer is none. Until the FTC steps in and puts an end to their game, it's buyer beware.
BTW, be glad you are here and not over at CA. At least here you will hear this side of it. At that site, what I just posted would not be allowed. |
| Well explained and reasoned (nt) | entrope
Oct 8, 2003 11:38 AM | | |
| re: Query.... | FLZapped
Oct 8, 2003 1:11 PM | | Your assumption is that the parts you mentioned all universally improve the operation of something - to a point of being audible, right?
They may or may not. They may in one instance, and not in another, etc.....
Same thing is true for wire. Depends entirely on the situation at hand.
-Bruce |
| Just pondering after reading some posts here.... | entrope
Oct 8, 2003 3:06 PM | | My thought- do better quality components improve a piece of equipment's reproduction to the point of audibility within the same design parameters? If so, and if the quality of conductor (metal) used is part of that improvement in the components used, why doesn't speaker wire and/or interconnects qualify with that chain of components creating better reproduction? |
| Ponder away ... that's what we're all here for | woodman
Oct 8, 2003 5:10 PM | | Your basic premise here needs clarification because it's based upon audiophile myths and exaggeration.
You ask:
i "... do better quality components improve a piece of equipment's reproduction to the point of audibility within the same design parameters?"
Possible, but highly unlikely. More often than not, the "better quality components" will produce greater reliability much more than greater performance. While it IS true that capacitor 'A' might perform better than capacitor 'B' and switch 'A' might perform better than switch 'B' and so on, these performance improvements are liable to pale in insignificance compared to the far more important aspect of a product which is circuit design.
Also, as skeptic pointed out in a reply here, much of the construction of these components (capacitors, resistors, switches, transformers, etc.) are NOT made of metal in the first place, which renders your whole query a bit moot.
i "If so, and if the quality of conductor (metal) used is part of that improvement in the components used, why doesn't speaker wire and/or interconnects qualify with that chain of components creating better reproduction?"
There's the rub, entrope. The quality of whatever metal IS used in the construction of these parts probably contributes next to nothing to the performance of that part, and its suitability for the job at hand. The same also applies to speaker wires and interconnects. The "quality" of the wire used is pretty much insignificant and meaningless in the final analysis.
So, isn't it possible for one wire to outperform another one? Of course. It's in the area of what is meaningful and significant that everything goes asunder. If wire 'A' were to perform 1/4 of 1% better than wire 'B', do you think that you'll be able to hear that "improvement"? How about 1/2 of 1%? How about 3/4 of 1%? How about a full 1%? How about none of the above?
woodman |
| You're gonna just hate this reply..... | FLZapped
Oct 9, 2003 9:52 AM | | i My thought- do better quality components improve a piece of equipment's reproduction to the point of audibility within the same design parameters?
No, now you've changed the cost structure and therefore the design parameters......
-Bruce |
| It depends | skeptic
Oct 9, 2003 1:03 PM | | Reliability aside and differences in circuit design aside, does one component of the a particular type and value sound better than another of the same type and value? Assuming both function properly, will wirewound resistor sound better than a carbon resistor? Will a polypropylene capacitor sound better than a ceramic capacitor? Will culling out matched pairs of vaccum tubes or transistors for power amplifier output stages matter? Manufacturers of high end equipment will tell you emphatically yes. It of course depends on the applicaton in the circuit. A poly cap in the signal path MIGHT, but as a shunt across the AC line to prevent a turn on pop, it won't. But if they do, generally the differences would be marginal at most? Audible? Some people would swear yes but there are no DBTs that I'm aware of to prove it. Fortunately at the OEM level where these products are purchased, the cost of most of them is very low. One place where there might be real differences are in inductors and transformers. The output transformer in a vacuum tube power amplifier can definitely affect the sound. An air wound choke in a crossover network will not saturate the way a cheaper ferrite core choke will. The circuit design is of paramount importance, far more than the quality of the parts in most cases. However as a rule, people who go to the trouble to design carefully thought out products and try to build them reliably generally use better quality parts. (I don't think an expensive volume control potentiometer in a so called passive preamplifier makes any difference.)
This in no way changes what I previously said about wires. The least expensive are invariably ideal at performing their function. |
| thoughtful and thought provoking insights without | entrope
Oct 9, 2003 5:16 PM | | rancor or name calling. Thanks for the civil posts.
I still hear a difference even if it is only in my head....................................... |
| re: Query.... | sofsoldier
Oct 10, 2003 8:54 AM | | I am no engineer, but I understand that wire should not affect the signal at all. It should transport from A to B with no signal loss. The other components you mentioned do something to the signal, either amplify or resist, so signal is affected. The quality of the parts should be that so no noise is introduced to the signal. This is very important when amplification does its job. With added noise comes added amplified noise along with amplified music. Wire does not introduce noise so this is not an issue. |
| Not only is your logic invalid... | Norm Strong
Oct 14, 2003 12:00 PM | | But the premises are as well. Better resistors, capacitors, etc. do not make for better sound. |
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