|   Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | okiemax
Oct 22, 2003 11:10 AM | | Many cable forum members claim that audiophiles are influenced by the placebo affect in their sighted evaluations of audio components. Based on a favorable review or other reasons, the audiophile expects a new cable or other component for his hifi system to sound better than the one being replaced, and therefore thinks it does, without any objective supporting evidence that the two components are audibly different. Whether this is good or bad might depend on how long the placebo influence lasts.
If the placebo effect is permanent, it may be good. Indeed, if effects are cummulative, the listener is on the path to Audio Nirvana, as each new component the audiophile purchases adds even more listening pleasure, and the level of enjoyment he ultimately reaches is enduring. Of course there is the possibility that the effects are not that cummulative -- perhaps the mind can cope with no more than one or two placebos at a time. But even one permanent improvement could be a good thing.
On the other hand, if the placebo effect is temporary, it could be bad, but only if the effect expires after the money-back guarantee period for the new component has lapsed. The audiophile so stuck with a purchase, however, would not necessarily have to be resigned to buyer remorse. One possibility is reviving the placebo effect by putting the old component back in the system for a while, and then again replacing it with the new one. This should be easy for the audiophile to try with any cable, since he probably still would have the zip cord, Radio Shack interconnect, and stock power cord. If the placebo can't be revived, there always is the opportunity for selling the unwanted item in the used market. |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | Rockwell
Oct 22, 2003 12:31 PM | | Given that many people spend much time and money chasing a result that is all or mostly imaginary, it is bad. If placebo gives some (probably short term) satisfaction it is good, in a way, but if those people would have spent all that time and money on things that produce real results, then that would be much better. Imagine how much more enjoyment you would get from $1000 in CDs, than from $1000 cables. Knowing that you are likely getting placebo results would seem to diminish the satisfaction. I don't think that the duration of the effect is important or knowable. It really only exists when you are trying to discern changes(especially nonexistant changes), and after a week or so, you either stop listening for changes, or start seeking some new fix. |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | DMK
Oct 23, 2003 5:57 AM | | Can Warren Warren and GCM be far behind? Or Eyespy? I'm starting to feel like an oldtimer....
Good to see you posting again. |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | Rockwell
Oct 23, 2003 8:35 AM | | Thanks, I didn't know anyone missed me! I've been lurking lately, but sometimes I go for a while without checking in. I don't post much because I don't want to get emotionally wrapped up in a heated thread, but I do like to discuss the psychological side of the wire debate occasionally. I must steer clear of the technical part. |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | mtrycrafts
Oct 23, 2003 5:56 PM | | b but I do like to discuss the psychological side of the wire debate occasionally.
Then you should be posting every day almost :) |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | DMK
Oct 24, 2003 3:02 PM | | Yeah, I agree! What else is there to cables? LOL! |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | DMK
Oct 24, 2003 3:09 PM | | b I don't want to get emotionally wrapped up in a heated thread
Ok, look - I'm willing to cut you some slack since you've been gone for awhile but now you've gone too far! Heating cables? I've heard about freezing them (or freezing something, I forget what - but freezing stuff, cables, mpingo discs - what's the diff?) but now you're going to start a whole sub-group of audiophiles who heat their cables for better sound! Wait, you said a heated DEBATE on cables, didn't you? Ok, you're fine - no harm done. :)
As Mtrycrafts said, the psychological side of the wire debate should keep you busy for years on A/R! One psycho I know well just spent $9900 on interconnects (3 1 meter pairs) and he refuses to come here. I can't imagine why.... |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | mtrycrafts
Oct 24, 2003 8:29 PM | | b One psycho I know well just spent $9900 on interconnects (3 1 meter pairs)
I think you named him well. He has more money than brains. I need to trade some. :) |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | DMK
Oct 25, 2003 8:32 AM | | b He has more money than brains. I need to trade some. :)
More dollars than sense (cents) as my old pappy liked to say.
If you want to trade brains for money, I have an idea. You post all those citations on A/R for free. If you charged a buck per citation, you'd have a few hundred grand by now, would you not? :) Keep 'em coming, they've helped quite a few newbies and not-so-newbies. |
| Haven't seen a post from you in many moons | mtrycrafts
Oct 25, 2003 5:05 PM | | b If you charged a buck per citation,
Maybe that is th eproblem, too much brains to do this :) |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | skeptic
Oct 22, 2003 6:00 PM | | If someone sells you sugar pills that they claim will cure cancer and you buy them and feel good for a while, when we catch them, we still put them in the same place they belong, jail.
When you realize that you still have cancer, if you try to sell the remaing pills to someone else with the same disease, then you should and will wind up in the same place, cancer and all.
If the people who make and sell audiophile cables met the same fate for the same crime, there would be no audiophile cable industry left because they would all be in jail.
If you somehow think that selling sugar pills to cancer victims or audiophile cables that don't do anything to suckers is OK because they might think they work for a while and get some happiness out of is is OK, perhaps you should see a psychiatrist or a priest. You have mental problems. |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | mtrycrafts
Oct 23, 2003 5:58 PM | | b there would be no audiophile cable industry left
Then the economy would suffer and I'd need a new hobby on the puter :) |
| Actually... | RGA
Oct 30, 2003 1:12 AM | | "If someone sells you sugar pills that they claim will cure cancer and you buy them and feel good for a while, when we catch them, we still put them in the same place they belong, jail.
When you realize that you still have cancer, if you try to sell the remaing pills to someone else with the same disease, then you should and will wind up in the same place, cancer and all."
Drug companies do in fact sell these sugar pills for billions of dollars...if only they were sugar...they sell drugs that have ZERO ability to cure stop or slow cancer and they also tend to give other side effects which could kill you faster. And hell these are the drugs they did Double Blind Testing on...their claims have zero proof and zero results that can be DIRECTLY attributed to their drugs...except the dangerous side effects of course...those are all verified.
I wonder why in the SUE capital of the world none of you objectivists don't go and buy a bunch of exotic cables and then sue the cable/amp and cd player makers for fraud - selling something that does not do what it's supposedly supposed to do - sound better.
C'MON...if they can blame McDonalds for stupid morons who got blame them for getting fat...I say there is a cable law-suit in the making.
Count me in I need the money. This salesman tried to sell me $800.00CDN Monster speaker wires. He won them and swears by them...replaced the wires on his 18 year old technics speakers - Huge difference he said. Of course maybe this might have possibly been the 18 year old speaker wire with bare ends that he replaced.
Are there any measurable difference within the audible spectrum? It's the only question I care about here. If yes then there is plausibility if not then highly doubtful. Simple. |
| Fuzzy logic | skeptic
Oct 30, 2003 9:08 AM | | I read a lot of fuzzy logic on this board. Seems people are quick to draw conclusions.
"I like the sound of vinyl records better than the sound of cds therefore cds are no good. Vinyl is king."
"I like the sound of tube amplifiers. I don't like the sound of transistor amplifiers. Transistors bad, tubes good."
"Are there any measurable difference within the audible spectrum? It's the only question I care about here. If yes then there is plausibility if not then highly doubtful. Simple."
Not so simple. There are many things where differences are measurable but not audible. That's why there are double blind tests. And there is still the possibility that there are audible differences we don't know how to measure YET. As I've said many times, the advances in measurements have not kept up with the advances in equipment performance.
Cancer is an extremely difficult disease to cure and so far many drugs which have some benefit for some people for a limited time my have no benefit for other people at all. They are not sugar pills. They are dangerous powerful drugs, often with serious side effects. Given the usually fatal nature of the disease and the real but relatively limited progress medical science has had so far, trying some of these drugs for a while is the only hope there is for some people. And when they prove ineffective, they try someting else if there is anything else modern science has to offer. It's that or see a witchdoctor. Or an audio salesman. Given some of the claims for some of the cables on the market, you'd think that they could cure cancer too. |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | sofsoldier
Oct 23, 2003 2:05 PM | | You are forgetting the most obvious problem in your placebo statement: Why was the purchase made in the first place?
If you are replacing a cable or a component, the usual method of replacement is to purchase the exact same product - that is unless you did not like it in the first place. If you are looking to upgrade and you walk into a high-end audio shop, you have already made the choice that effects the listening result. At that point, the only concern for the placebo affect is to somehow redirct buyers remorse. |
| Either OR neither OR ... | woodman
Oct 23, 2003 3:57 PM | | ... whatever one chooses it to be.
What you're talking about with the term
i placebo,
is what I've chosen to call an individuals' ABEs (Attitudes, Beliefs, & Expectations). This is much more to the point than the term "placebo" for it identifies the most important aspect, which is that it is ultimately under the individuals' control! YOU are the one that gets to choose:
a. what you BELIEVE in
b. what sort of ATTITUDE you want to adopt
and it is the merging of these two that creates the EXPECTATIONS that result in the sensory experiences that we have. For, in truth - it is BELIEFS that create our reality, whether one chooses to believe it to be so or not!
So, in answer to your question ... yes, the "placebo effect" or ABEs can be a good thing, as it can keep you from spending money foolishly (if THAT is your desire). On the other hand, it can be a BAD thing, for it will cause you to experience worthwhile results when there is nothing there but illusion! The really good news is that YOU get to decide just what sort of reality you choose for yourself. Yippee!
woodman |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | mtrycrafts
Oct 23, 2003 6:04 PM | | b If the placebo effect is permanent, it may be good.
The placebo/bias is permanet. Its effects on th eother hand are variable without your knowledge or direct control when it changes or its effects. Not a linear process or progression. |
| Reverse Placebo effect | skeptic
Oct 24, 2003 6:45 AM | | If you believe in the placebo effect, why not use it in reverse to your advantage.
Go out to the most pretentious audio shop you can find, listen to their most expensive cables, and amaze yourself at how wonderful they are. Then go to Home Depot, buy 100 feet of 16 gage RCA speaker wire for $20, and convince youself that the RCA wire sounds at least as good, maybe better.
I'll send you my bill in the mail, just post your address. |
| Depends. | Pat D
Oct 24, 2003 8:04 PM | | The story of Buridan's donkey (made up by his critics) can be used for illustration.
Jean Buridan (circa 1295-1358) held an intellectualistic theory of the will, which chooses the best alternative. His opponents proposed the problem of a hungry donkey placed between two equal piles of hay. On Buridan's theory, the donkey should be unable to make a decision and would starve to death. Clearly, to be able to develop a bias towards one or the other (or try both) would have survival value.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03078a.htm
The great J. Henri Fabre, who studied insects, found an opportunity to see how this might work with caterpillars. Poor caterpillars!
http://www.e-fabre.net/virtual_library/wonders_of_instinct/chap08.htm
Then, the basic problem has also been discussed in modern electronics:
http://www.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Personal/D.Jefferies/donkey.html
Anyway, the placebo effect may have survival value as we need to be able to make decisions. On the other hand, unchecked by reason, it can also be expensive for the consumer. |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | okiemax
Oct 25, 2003 1:40 PM | | Many thanks for the replies, and special thanks to mtrycraft, who got me interested in the subject of placebos. |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | skeptic
Oct 25, 2003 3:59 PM | | mtrycraft is actually a placebo himself. We use him as a test to see if anyone on this message board pays any attention to anything anyone else says or even hears them. So far, your response notwithstanding, the statistics indicate that there is no appreciable actual response to postings and therefore we have concluded that everyone here is most likely brain dead or not actually human at all but are cyber characters dreamt up as a program by another computer (especially the one who calls himself skeptic.) We are taking bets that all of the responses posted are generated at random and inserted robotically as none of it ever seems to make any sense or relate to anything anyone else has to say.
Sincerely,
The Management |
| keep this up | mtrycrafts
Oct 25, 2003 5:07 PM | | and you won't have me around, 'here lies mtrcrafts, died of too much laughter' :) |
| UNFORGIVEABLE... | pctower
Oct 26, 2003 6:53 AM | | is the only word I can think of to describe the suggestion, which is implicit in your post, that this board be closed down. You obviously want to quash any forum that permits posting from people who disagree with you
Or wait, have I rushed to judgment? Yes, I believe I have. To conclude that your post implies such a suggestion would be highly irresponsible.
Please accept my most sincere aplogies. I momentarily lapsed into the distorted and twisted sophistry employed by one of the regulars on this board who has little regard for reason, logic and the truth.
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef9f91d/70">skeptic "Does anyone trust their own ears?" 10/22/03 9:56am</a>
pctower "Does anyone trust their own ears?" 10/24/03 7:23am |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | DMK
Oct 27, 2003 7:19 PM | | b mtrycraft is actually a placebo himself.
That explains why Mrs Mtrycrafts calls him "Sugar Pill". :) |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | mtrycrafts
Oct 27, 2003 10:38 PM | | LOL. You are too much :) |
| re: Placebo effect : Is it good or bad? | mtrycrafts
Oct 25, 2003 5:11 PM | | Certainly my pleasure to expand others knowledge and curiosity. You and phil tower are trying to learn and expand. Many are not and are closed minded. |
| Cable-cult stupidity. | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 28, 2003 3:09 PM | | b "Many cable forum members claim that audiophiles are influenced by the placebo affect in their sighted evaluations of audio components." - okiemax
The belief that expectation bias is an invention of cable forum naysayers is one of those bits of audiophile stupidity that is totally laughable.
R.O. |
| Cable-cult lack of understanding | woodman
Oct 28, 2003 5:44 PM | | okiemax seems to believe that he is immune from "placebo affect"(sp) by conducting his (sighted) evaluations over a long term, so that his ears can tell him the real sonoic truth about things. This tells me that he doesn't truly understand what he chooses to call "placebo" and I coined the acronym ABEs to more accurately depict what's happening.
When a "placebo" pill is given in the testing of a drug or a medicine, it demonstrates all too clearly just what an individual's beliefs and attitudes can do to produce a result - whether positive or negative.
The testing of products involving sensory perceptions are a totally different ballgame however, which is what led me to talk about ABEs rather than placebo. ABEs are created by EVERYTHING an individual has ever seen, heard, or read, and often reside in the subconscious - totally out of the person's awareness. Thus when they often claim total objectivity and lack of bias they must be made to realise that such conditions are completely impossible.
woodman |
| Cable-cult lack of understanding | pctower
Oct 29, 2003 11:13 AM | | "Thus when they often claim total objectivity and lack of bias they
b must be made to realise
that such conditions are completely impossible."
Why so? It's one thing to lead a horse to water, quite another ....
It's one thing to present information of which one is convinced is correct; quite another to insist that others accept the validity of that information.
This is where I think naysayers can become their own worst enemies. It seems to me they often demand that others think and believe the same way they do rather than simply allowing the strength of the information and arguments they advance to stand on their own. By doing so, I believe naysayers often loose their audience and create animosity rather than greater knowledge.
I learned a long time ago that if I tell my wife she is saying or doing something based on her subconscious, I've just destroyed the chance of any dialog. If it is in her subconscious, then she can't possible be aware of it and no doubt will become defensive.
I find it strange that naysayers often go to great length to explain how ABE's can emanate from the subconscious, but seem so intolerant of those who appear to be exhibiting behavior which is guided by the subconscious. Rather than calling these people stupid, cult-followers, or feigning insincere pity for them, if the real goal is to advance knowledge, it seems to me that sticking with objective information rather than getting personal would be the way to go. |
| Perceptions. | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 30, 2003 7:54 PM | | b "It's one thing to present information of which one is convinced is correct; quite another to insist that others accept the validity of that information. - PCT
It's one thing to insist that others accept the validity of information of which one is convinced is correct, and quite another to get upset when some dumbass starts telling you that you have shit for brains and don't listen to music.
Your perceptions seem inaccurate to me. We explain, and some find the explanation offensive, because they don't read with accuracy (a byproduct of their expectations and biases) and totally misunderstand. It can be explained again and again as a problem that affects every human perception. No matter how patent we might be, some will still see it all as a personal attack. They attack, fully believing that they are counter-attacking, and some won't quit until they get wise. Either they get a little smarter, or they feel as if they are being forced to believe something they don't want to believe. How stupid of them to think that way! They are the ones that keep coming back for more, talking crap, and then wining when they're corrected. When someone gets tired of their crap and expresses their heart-felt opinion, then we're all painted as bad guys. It ain't so Phil, and if you think it is you are letting your own biases color what you see in a way that my biases make me think is completely wrong. I could care less what you or anyone else thinks, and by noting that my opinion differs from yours, I am NOT trying to make you adopt it as your own. You've been accusing almost everyone who disagrees with you lately of doing that, and it's getting a bit tiring. Here's the way I see the pattern. Phil posts something to encourage disagreement. Someone disagrees, and Phil attacks them for trying to force others to accept their ideas.
If there is any truth at all in your thinking on this matter then what are you doing when you post? If you express an idea, it is being put forth for either acceptance or rejection. When your ideas are rejected you attack the rejection and the rejecter, and then piss and moan when they respond harshly.
Get over it. You want to make others feel guilty for sticking to what they know to be the truth. Where's the logic in that?
R.O. |
| Perceptions. | pctower
Oct 31, 2003 5:59 AM | | I have no problems with people expressing opinions. I wouldn't bother to post or read if no one expressed their opinions or imparted knowledge.
It's the way it is done that I was commenting on and it was the phrase "must be made to realise", that stimulated my comments.
To me there is a difference between presenting one's argument in as convincing a manner as possible and outright demanding that others agree. That's all I meant to say.
I detect a fair degree of intellectual arrogance on this board. But that's just my own personal judgment. However, in the past when I posted more frequently and this board was more active, I tried to point out the specific instances where I thought I was detecting that rather than making the broad generalizations I did in the post above. |
| Why is this concept so difficult for a barrister ... | woodman
Oct 31, 2003 12:06 AM | | ... to comprehend?
You say:
b "Thus when they often claim total objectivity and lack of bias they must be made to realise that such conditions are completely impossible. Why so? It's one thing to lead a horse to water, quite another .... "
Why so, you ask? Simply because
i total objectivity and lack of bias
is NOT within the realms of possibility, that's why. Every person has his/her own ABEs ... they "come with the territory" ... they're part and parcel of the human condition. They are unavoidable.
b "It's one thing to present information of which one is convinced is correct; quite another to insist that others accept the validity of that information."
I do NOT insist upon anything ... I merely want to make the terminally gullible aware of a "fact of life" for them to either accept or reject at their pleasure.
b "I find it strange that naysayers often go to great length to explain how ABE's can emanate from the subconscious, but seem so intolerant of those who appear to be exhibiting behavior which is guided by the subconscious."
Tolerance has nothing whatever to do with it.
b "Rather than calling these people stupid, cult-followers, or feigning insincere pity for them, if the real goal is to advance knowledge, it seems to me that sticking with objective information rather than getting personal would be the way to go."
To the best of my knowledge, I've NEVER called anyone such names at this board or any other. Furthermore, the pity I feel for them is neither "feigned" nor "insincere".
woodman |
| Why is this concept so difficult for a barrister ... | pctower
Oct 31, 2003 6:01 AM | | b To the best of my knowledge, I've NEVER called anyone such names at this board or any other.
No, just "terminally gullible".
b Furthermore, the pity I feel for them is neither "feigned" nor "insincere".
If you say so. |
| ABE's. | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 30, 2003 7:23 PM | | We can say it lots of different ways, and go in any direction with it, but the simple fact of the matter is that perception is a complex composite with many factors. Reality as we experience it is a construction inside our brains that is closely related to the outside world in a functional way that works well, but the experience and the reality are quite different.
To put it another way Woodman, I think you're into something that is deep and complex, and very fascinating. Understanding the causes and implications is pretty tough for some, for some reason that puzzles me. I think it may have something to do with visualization skills, but I have no real evidence that this is the case. It could as easily be because some of the stuff can be a little unsettling, and knowing that perceptions are inaccurate isn't normally useful. For most of what we do, they are functionally accurate, which is all that matters. When it leads to prejudice, biases, or gullibility then it needs to be checked, but I don't think that's easy without some level of understanding.
In fact, I'm not even sure that understanding it really helps us become any more objective. Perhaps in some ways, but not entirely. I really don't believe anyone is ever totally objective in every way.
Know what I mean?
R.O. |
| re: ABE's. | woodman
Oct 31, 2003 12:20 AM | | RADAR:
I want to respond in some depth to this post, but it's late and I'm exhausted (this has been a very traumatic week here in So.Calif.)
Be back tomorrow (if the electric power stays on).
woodman |
| Back with you, RADAR ... | woodman
Oct 31, 2003 4:06 PM | | ... I still have electricity, so I can discuss this matter further with you.
Yes, this subject is quite complex. The enigma though is that it's at the same time - quite simple! The reason that it can be so difficult for some to accept can be summed up with only one word ... RESPONSIBILITY. Let me explain what I mean by that.
It's
b beliefs
that create the reality that each of us experiences ... NOT the other way around. The proof of this is everywhere about us if we care to look. When this basic "fact of life" is presented however, it forces people to take a hard look at what they've chosen to believe (since we're all free to choose what we want to believe). If they don't like the reality they see, it's much easier to deny that they had anything to do with it than to take responsibility for it. Admitting that they've made poor choices about what to believe is difficult for most - impossible for others.
I was fascinated to learn that the memory capacity of humans is FAR, FAR greater than anyone ever imagined! We are literally inundated with "information" and "sensory data" that is ALL stored away in our craniums! Every item and its price on every restaurant menu we ever looked at for example. Every license plate number and the color and make of the car it was attached to - every movie we ever watched - every TV commercial as well - every song, every word of every lyric, every word of every conversation we ever had with anybody ... the list goes on and on!
So when it comes to sensory perceptions, every thing someone has read, seen, heard, or been told by another has all been stored away - usually beyond conscious awareness, 'cause we simply couldn't function otherwise. They are stored away in "believable" and "not-believable" areas, or in the area of "undecided". Additionally, bits and pieces can and do shift from one of these areas to another, depending on the individual's ABEs - which are of course subject to change as well.
The fact that all of this is stored in our brains according to what we've chosen to believe, makes complete objectivity and lack of bias totally impossible. It does, on the other hand, explain why and how two individuals exposed to the same sensory stimulus, can have such vastly different responses to it.
I could go on and on, but I gotta go fetch my wife
woodman |
| Woodman. | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 31, 2003 11:19 PM | | If you don't mind, please go to my Web site at http://home.att.net/~radar_o_riley and then go to the "Contact" page (the link is at the top of the main page), and drop me an e-mail. That will get your e-mail address to me without either of us having to post addresses here on a public forum. I want to continue this conversation, but the limits on post length and difficulty of including images and attachments on the forum is going to be a problem. Let's take this private, OK?
Where in So.Cal. do you live? I lived in Sunnymead and Riverside for a while. Spent a summer living in Hollywood too. I've still got a few friends in the area, some of which have had to evacuate. Hopefully the cooler damper weather is going to help get the fires under control. Good luck.
Did you know that the smoke is visible all the way out to Vegas? !!!
R.O. |
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