|   Different Drum | pctower
Oct 29, 2003 11:41 AM | | This guy seems to have staked out an interesting and unique position:
http://www.high-endaudio.com/magaz.html
I posted this link here about a year ago and then forgot about it. It was recently reproduced in a post over at AA, so I thought I'd post the link again for those who are not aware of it.
I find it interesting in that there seems to be plenty for both naysayers and yeasayers to disagree with.
By the way, the AA post is:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/30780.html |
| This is a good one... | Monstrous Mike
Oct 29, 2003 12:03 PM | | <b>What is "Audio Faith"?
This is the simple, childlike, yet powerful belief that the entire audio world is very different than the rest of the world.</b>
This is one of the main modus operandi of guys like Jon Risch. Regardless of my experience and education in wide variety of electrical engineering disciplines, since I haven't designed an amp or built a crossover circuit, I cannot possibly comment on things like the electrical properties of audio cabling.
Yet the audiophile minions foam at the mouth when Jon launches Ad Hominem after Ad Hominem attack on credible people of engineering and science who are asking the right questions.
This is the foundation of the perpetuation of the "audio faith".
Thank God this is simply a benign topic and nobody is getting really hurt other than perhaps putting their hard earned money into audio components thar have unverified performance claims
All we can do is continue to bring forth information and opinion which can shed some light on the matter and try to give newbies a balanced view of the audio world lest they are sucked into high end audio with only "audio faith" as their companion. |
| Geez...1995, even!(nt) | FLZapped
Oct 29, 2003 2:14 PM | | |
| I tried ... | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 29, 2003 7:56 PM | | ... to read it all, but the guy is more windy than RADAR. Mercy me! ;-)
I got as far as the discussion of "Audio Relativism" but by then I was just too bored to continue. Up to that point I found very little that seemed questionable, and one of his comments really struck a chord. I'll bet most audiophiles (or anyone else for that matter) really don't have a clue what it's like for industry insiders. In the 70's I was able to purchase our ServoStatic system (MSRP $2100.00) for $1050, the amp for the midrange (MSRP $500.00) for $250, and a nice tube amp kit for the tweeters cost me a grand total of $30 (MSRP was around $100.00). The audio companies know that audiophiles (most audio salesmen of the day were also audiophiles) get passionate about the gear they own, so this was just "good business." Today I'm no longer an insider, but I still have friends and associates in the business, and I still get insider deals. Our $2000.00 A/V Pre-amp is on loan (apparently a permanent loan, since I can't get a bill from the manufacturer, and the model is now out of production. I can buy truckloads of my favorite amplifier (MSRP $3000.00 or more depending on the faceplate) for a cool grand. Pretty much anything I want I can either get at around 1/3 MSRP or for free. The speaker wire I use retails for $200 up (depending on the name it is sold under) for short runs, but I've got a spool of the stuff. Cost? Zip. The article said that once you're an insider, you're always an insider, and if my experience is any indication, that's true. I'm not an insider, but I was long ago, and I still get insider deals.
And this is only the salesman's perks! I know of one audio reviewer who will, by the end of the year, be visited by the designer of the speakers he's been using and talking-up for several years. The designer is dropping by to install the new $30,000.00 speakers the company is
b giving
to the man. Now I'm not saying that this might bias the man, or that it's intended to sway him in any way, but how many audiophiles get free speakers?
I can promise you Phil, the industry is not what audiophiles think. I know that for a fact, even though I'm no longer a real insider. I still get the straight poop from the inside, and it really is not in any way what the audio press and industry want everyone to think.
Not to say that everyone in the business is a crook. That is simply untrue. As you know (Phil), I'm not too fond of bullshippers, but I still have a fairly large number of friends in the industry. They are all promoters, but that's a necessary part of running any business that depends on sales. They are also all people who I consider to be deviations from the norm in the industry. If I didn't see it that way, they wouldn't be my friends.
R.O. |
| I tried ... | skeptic
Oct 30, 2003 10:04 AM | | It comes as no surprise to anyone in the electronics business in almost any capacity that high end audiophile equipment purchased at retail is a ripoff. When you look at what goes into it, the prices they ask are practically criminal. And when you know what real engineering and scientific research is about, the tinkering these guys do and the big deal they try to make out of it is a joke. So called mid fi equipment which exists in a much more competitive market is a far better value and sold with far fewer pretentions. |
| Value. | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 30, 2003 5:03 PM | | Do you really feel qualified to tell everyone else what they should value?
Would you argue that a Toyota is a better value than a 7-Series BMW? Don't you realize that some people value the virtues of the latter over the virtues of the former? Do you think people who value things that you don't value yourself have something wrong with them?
Just wondering.
R.O. |
| Value. | skeptic
Oct 31, 2003 4:38 AM | | It doesn't bother me a bit if some people are willing to pay 50 times the manufacturing cost of an item when most other comparable items are priced at only 10 times. And I don't care why they would pay it either, It's their money and their choice.
The objective facts the way I see it are, that while a BMW 7 series will outperform a Toyota Corrola in most ways, whether or not all or even most of the so called high end audiophile equipment actually outperforms the best of the so called mid fi equipment is often questionable. In fact as I see it, much of it UNDERPERFORMS. As an example, I wrote in another thread about tube amplifiers why they often cost so much. It could have been about much high end equipment.
I'm just saying that the high prices and the markups don't come as a surprise to me. I've taken too many of them apart to be impressed or surprised by anything anymore. And don't try to tell me that a guy who came up with the fifty thousandth and first new wrinkle on how to bias a 12AX7A and a KT88 is some hot shot amplifier designer who reinvented the world or the guy who figured out a new shape for a box to put a pair of Vifa drivers in is some super whiz speaker designer. By now, most of this stuff is little more than cookbook design if you know where to get the cookbooks. When it comes to research scientists, I've also seen and known the real thing up close and "they ain't it." Want to see a real work of art? Open up a Crown SX824 tape deck or a McIntosh C22 preamp. At least there, you can clearly understand the rationale behind the high cost, even if you don't think it's justified to buy one. |
| Much better. ;-) | RADAR O_Riley
Oct 31, 2003 9:52 PM | | Now I can agree with you. :-D
There is a rule of thumb in manufacturing that says that a product needs to carry an MSRP of 5x manufacturing cost, to cover overhead, advertising, warranty, and so on. I simply refuse to do business with companies that gouge, and anything over 5x is suspect. Most of the companies I work with actually try to set their MSRP at 3x (and are struggling for it) and one even sells at 2x (and they are really struggling). 2x is nuts, as the dealer will want to make 40% or more and that leaves the manufacturer with only a tiny amount over production cost to cover all the other expenses of doing business and marketing.
But we are in fact (as is more often the case than not) in total agreement. Your first statement painted with too broad a brush, and my questions were intended to make that clear (and by gosh, it worked). :-D
I like the way McIntosh gear is constructed. It meets my minimum standards for quality, but I can get the same quality for MUCH less, so I personally would not by McIntosch gear. I have been known to recommend it to at least one person. I love the blue faceplates and big meters they put on their amps, and the stuff is very well made. Compare a McIntosh amp to an audiophile SET amp that sells for an order of magnitude more (and has two orders of magnitude more distortion) and you'll a good example of what the high-end industry is trying to do to their loyal customers (the audiophiles). They're really sticking it to 'em, but the audiophiles just don't seem to notice.
Not everyone in the audio industry, or even everyone in the high-end audio industry, is running a con game, but total honesty and full disclosure is so rare as to be almost nonexistent. You were mostly right in your original post, but there are exceptions, and as long as we can agree on that as well, then we're in total agreement.
R.O. |
| I read the entire thing | Norm Strong
Nov 1, 2003 4:11 PM | | and believe me, that's an effort. There should be some sort of award for anyone that can slog through that "thing."
So far as I can see, there's nothing significant in the article. The author is mad at the entire audio reviewing business. So what? |
| |
