|   Component Buying Advice | pctower
Oct 31, 2003 9:07 AM | | The standard advice given to newbies here is to use stock or buy at Home Depot or Wal-Mart. May be good advice. I dont want to argue about that issue.
But it got me to wondering, what the same people who give that advice would advise as to buying components and speakers. I know the issues are different, but it seems to me many of those who adhere to the Home Depot persuasion also believe that beyond meeting basic distortion and power ratings, there isnt much difference sonically between different components. Mtyrcrafts, for example, a while back was extolling the virtues of a very inexpensive CD player from Radio Shack.
So my question to the Home Depot people is what advice you give newbies as to speakers and components. Im assuming you recommend sticking with Best Buy and Circuit City. Anything beyond that would be solely for the terminally gullible who have more money than brains.
I suppose even Ultimate Electronics would be off limits as they carry Krell and Martin Logan bands products from the hated high end. |
| re: Component Buying Advice | FLZapped
Oct 31, 2003 10:44 AM | | Designed and built my own, so I usually say nothing about speakers. The last commercial speaker I bought was for sound reinforcement. It was chosen because it's design was specifically for rectangular rooms, which is where it is used. Works superb. The room still needs a little echo cancellation though.
Components, usually that is a matter of feature preference to me, not sonic superiority, so I usually avoid that one too.....
However, what's wrong with the $60 5CD RCA changer at ratshack?? Or is it $50? Oh well.
It's only in the world of wire(Why-ya, for you southenars) that I get going. This is an illegitimate business in my (biased) opinion.....
So there, nyah.
-Bruce |
| re: Component Buying Advice | Monstrous Mike
Oct 31, 2003 11:22 AM | | If a person was intent on spending a large bundle of cash on home audio (and if I had lots of cash that would include me), I would have the following advice.
Wires and interconnects-I do not believe performance increases with price indefinitely. The technical arguements do not support it and there is no valid testing to support it either. Home Depot sells basic audio cabling but I would suggest going to low end aftermarket cabling. For example, there are plenty of choices for speaker wires for under $100 that are heavy gauge, well jacketed, look nice and sturdy and have excellent terminations. The same applies for interconnects.
CD player-Again, I feel players over $1000 only offer name brand and prestige. If that is what you want, fine. My suggestion is to get a good name brand player with all the features you could want. Warranty and reliability would be key factors. I believe a unit like this could be had for $400-$500
Amp/preamp/processor-This is where it gets a bit cloudy. Determining if a $10000 unit sounds better than a $2000 would be difficult at best. However, a more expensive unit may be much more powerful and have a very large power supply. If loud, sustained volumes are required or you are driving multiple speakers or high demand speakers, the overhead in power might be useful. Also, the more expensive processors may have an extended range of features geared toward the advanced user. I believe if you play at volume X, then it is better to get an amp that can handle X+90% more rather than X=10% more.
Speakers-This is the most complicated of all components. There are design compromises made in almost all speakers. The crossover circuitry can be made very complex and costly. Of all the components, speakers may very well be the most likely to be distinguishable due to unique sonic signatures. The variables for making a speaker are numerous. Of all the components, a $10000 pair of speakers may very likely be worth every penny.
And as a final note, I would also look into spending money on integration and installation. There is no reason a computer cannot be a vital component of the stereo system. And on the installation side, room acoustics are the final touch to an excellent sounding system.
So regardless of my (or others) recommendation for Radio Shack or Home Depot for starter cables, if I had $40,000, I would spend it something like this:
Cabling: $500
CD Player: $500
Amp: $5,000
Pre/pro: $10,000
Speakers: $15,000
Room treatments: $5000
Computer/Interface: $4000
Does that paint you a good picture? |
| re: Component Buying Advice | pctower
Oct 31, 2003 1:33 PM | | Thanks Mike. Interesting take.
I assume that because you didn't mention DVD or SACD, you may be considering this a two-channel system, but I'm not sure.
The pre/pro seems high to me. Have you thought about the new universal players. I haven't heard one, but they seem to me to be the wave of the future. If I were starting from scratch, I think I'd give one serious consideration and perhaps couple it with the 950 pre/pro and ICBM Base Management system from Outlaw:
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products.html
I have an expensive transport/dac front end (that I put together over the years by keeping a close eye on Audiogon), but in comparing it (in redbook) with the Marantz 8260 SACD player (in redbook) which retails for around $1200 (I bought it used from a dealer for $600), I'm convinced that digital front ends reach the point of diminishing returns pretty quickly.
BTW, you know what a cable nut I am. I have a pair of Outlaw analog interconncects and from my terminally gullible, miserable, placebo-infested perspective, they sound as good as any interconnects I've ever ABE'd. And at the prices they charge, by high end standards they are practically giving them away. Even if one considers all after-market cables voodoo, they are well constructed, sturdy cables.
I certainly agree that speakers are clearly the area where tastes and differences can predominate. I've been a Vandersteen groupie for over 15 years and never have wanted to change (only upgrade to the next model up the line), so that area is actually pretty simple for me. Vandy speakers will always come in last in any beauty contest, but I really believe they are hard to beat on a cost/benefit basis.
Perhaps to refine my first question a little more for you, if you care to respond or others, is whether you believe there is equipment above the BB and CC level that makes sense to engineers who are not into voodoo electronics from a purely performance perspective (excluding consideration of special features, like remote control and other ergonomic or user-friendly or flexibility-oriented features). |
| "Vandy speakers will always come in last in any beauty contest,? | Richard Greene
Oct 31, 2003 3:28 PM | | Disagree.
The use of large quantities of inexpensive cloth rather than large quantities of expensive wood veneer is beautiful engineering.
Other than that most speakers look like two boxes.
True beauty looks nothing like speakers:
http://togawp.typepad.com/main/2003/10/britney_nude_es.html
(refresh screen several times, or cut and paste link,
or buy latest edition of ESQUIRE, if link is blank) |
| mmmm.... | Rockwell
Nov 1, 2003 5:22 PM | | http://www.esquire.com/women/gallery/031101_mww_britney_frame.html |
| re: Component Buying Advice | Monstrous Mike
Nov 1, 2003 8:35 AM | | In answer to your refined question, yes I do believe there is equipment (speakers, amps, pre/pros and perhaps CD players) that are a large step above what is offered at BB or CC.
There are many ways to greatly increase the cost of speakers and it is likely that performance relfects that cost.
Similarly, there are many components that can be upgraded in an amp or preamp. The question of superior sound may be more elusive but as I have said, if the conditions this equipment are used under are different than the average home joe, like multiple speakers, special speakers, extreme volume and perhaps even demanding source material, I do believe higher end amps will perform better.
Of course, on a case by case basis, I'm sure there is equipment that is overpriced but I think this pales in comparison to the hysteria over high end cabling. |
| re: Component Buying Advice | FLZapped
Oct 31, 2003 3:42 PM | | Okay buddy, we see the fat in this appropriations bill. We're gonna cut that computer out your trying to sneak in there.....
-Bruce
(Happy Halloween) |
| As a proud owner of Home Depot wire I recommend | Richard Greene
Oct 31, 2003 3:19 PM | | My local Home Depot's change 12AWG wire suppliers frequently.
The Home Depot 12AWG wire I use for my main system is made by
AIC Corp and looks very much like the original Monster Cable,
except for being slightly thinner and more flexible.
The next time I bought Home Depot 12AWG it was completely different except the price was the same 30 cents per foot. That wire was stiff, had no brand name on it, and one of the leads was tinned. The filaments were rather thick too, unlike the fine filaments of the AIC Corp wire. However since it was going to be used for a system with a $100 receiver and $200/pair speakers, I bought it anyway.
The first time I played a song all my hair fell out.
I recommend audio equipment that is suitable to the listening room, listening habits and budget of the people who ask. The $175 Cambridge Audio 300 CD player I bought from Audio Advisor was later recommended to many people, for example, regardless of how large their budget was.
Amplifiers are recommended only after the speakers are selected.
I try to steer people toward eight ohm speakers with above average efficiency as that makes the amplifier recommndation less risky.
The speakers and room are critical for sound quality.
I recommend used speakers for those whose budget is not sufficient for decent new speakers.
I frequently recommend USED Vandersteen model 2's, for example, for people thinking of spending $500-$700 on speakers ... which is not enough to buy decent NEW full-range speakers or even a
NEW sub-satellite combo.
USED Legacy Classics for under $2000 are another favorite of mine -- especially for people thinking of buying NEW Paradigm 100's
It makes no sense to spend a lot of money on audio equipment for a small squarish room with poor acoustics (both of my inexensive bedroom systems are in rooms like that) ... or for people who do other things while listening, and rarely sit in the sweet spot like we audionuts do.
While it is inconceivable to most audiophiles that $5000 speakers driven by a mere $500-$1000 integrated amplifier
could sound better than let's say $2000 speakers driven by $4000 of electronics (separate pre-amps & amplifier), I have auditioned such combinations many times and the combination with the better sounding speakers sounds
better to me almost every time. |
| As a proud owner of Home Depot wire I recommend | pctower
Oct 31, 2003 4:02 PM | | b While it is inconceivable to most audiophiles that $5000 speakers driven by a mere $500-$1000 integrated amplifier could sound better than let's say $2000 speakers driven by $4000 of electronics separate pre-amps & amplifier), I have auditioned such combinations many times and the combination with the better sounding speakers sounds better to me almost every time.
I've heard tell of a gathering (maybe at CES) when Dave Wilson was introducing one of his super-expensive new speakers. He had the room set up so that the big Krell amps (or something like that) were on a table situated between the two speakers for all to see.
A group of reviewers was invited into the room and they were absolutely gushing in their praise of the system's performance.
After all had a chance to express his opinion, Dave lifted the cloth which was covering the table to reveal a $600 amp sitting under the table as the one that was actually driving the speakers. He said he did that to demonstrate how much more important the speakers are than the amp.
I know you have witnessed many similar situations.
BTW: I sure wish you wouldn't break up your sentences and paragraphs with hard line breaks. It's a pain in the ass highlighting one of your comments. |
| re: Component Buying Advice | Norm Strong
Nov 1, 2003 3:11 PM | | I'm certainly one of those people you're talking about. I buy cheap speaker cables and interconnects because it doesn't make any difference. When it comes to the other components I adopt as much of the same philosophy as I believe will give good results.
CD players: I don't think there is a significant improvement in sound from spending more money on a CD player. Some players do a better job of tracking defective CDs, but this too does not seem to correlate with price. Features sometimes are inversely related to price; the more the features, the cheaper the player. I can't imagine buying a CD player that lacks any of the following: Headphone output with volume control, remote control, a --> b repeat, full programmability, digital output (preferably both coax and optical), index marks, multispeed search, ability to play CDR and RW up to at least 90 minutes. You get the point. All of these requirements can be met for less than $200, so that is a practical limit.
Receiver: I don't see any advantage in buying an integrated amp instead of a receiver. Within their design limits, receivers, IA's, and separates all do the job reasonably well. Why would a person buy an expensive separate amp? Need more power, has to drive a low impedance load, that's about it. Sound quality is pretty much a wash. Unless one needs more than 100W per channel, or you're driving an electrostatic speaker, a fully capable receiver can be purchased for anywhere from $250 up. There certainly is no excuse for going over $500.
Which leaves the speakers: Speakers are idiosyncratic. They all sound different, and your choice usually has little to do with price. What do you get when you spend more for a speaker? One that will play louder and lower and has nicer looking furniture. What you will not get is better sound. Expensive speakers usually play down to lower frequencies and will play louder without increased distortion. But if you're looking for normal volume levels in an average size room, and you're not expecting pipe organ frequency range, you can get excellent sound quality for $200/pr. In fact, I just bought a pair of very nice looking speakers that covered the range down to 100Hz for $40/pr. Getting down to 30Hz at reference volume levels can cost $500, so if you want to know where to put your money, spend it on a subwoofer. |
| re: Component Buying Advice | mtrycrafts
Nov 1, 2003 11:12 PM | | b Mtyrcrafts, for example, a while back was extolling the virtues of a very inexpensive CD player from Radio Shack.
Only if it was the RCA that T$$ reviewed a while back. I don't think I stated it was available at Radio Shack as I have no idea what CD player they carry. Usually their brand.
b Im assuming you recommend sticking with Best Buy and Circuit City.
Not at all. As you indicated, speakers are a whole different issue. If they find a speaker at your mentioned place that they like, why not? If they find their speakers somewhere else, so be it. Don't jump from cable recommendations and equate them to speaker store equivalents.
b I suppose even Ultimate Electronics would be off limits as they carry Krell and Martin Logan bands products from the hated high end.
There are plenty of reasons to buy those components, sound may not be one of them though. an issue of preferences:) |
| |
