|   Are Total Idiots In Charge of this Planet? | pctower
Nov 16, 2003 10:33 AM | | The new format here, albeit isolated to one remote corner of planet Earth, is strong anecdotal evidence that the answer to that question is in the affirmative. |
| Maybe | Bill L
Nov 16, 2003 12:11 PM | | Bush is. |
| No maybe about it, Bill ... | woodman
Nov 16, 2003 3:24 PM | | ... you have only to look at our prez and his administration - the biggest collection of idiots I've ever seen! But perhaps the even bigger idiots are the 50% of the population that support them, and will vote for them again to keep them in office for four more years of this insanity! Sheeeeeeesh! Heaven help us!
woodman |
| No maybe about it, Bill ... | mtrycrafts
Nov 16, 2003 8:16 PM | | Somebody better help us. Heaven is not there:) |
| No maybe about it, Bill ... | RobotCzar
Nov 19, 2003 7:16 AM | | I was about to say something similar. Don't expect much help from that quarter (Heaven that is). If there is a Heaven I suppose its leaders are just as dissatisfied as we are.
I can't see how things are going to get better.
As for this forum, I will probably not continue to come here when the new format is required. It was nice tele-talking to you all. (Well, most of you.) |
| My preliminary swan song. | pctower
Nov 19, 2003 1:22 PM | | b As for this forum, I will probably not continue to come here when the new format is required. It was nice tele-talking to you all. (Well, most of you.)
I assume "most of you" does not include me. However, I too doubt I'll be posting much under the new format. So, I want to take this opportunity to state as precisely as I can where I stand from a scientific viewpoint on the major issues discussed here. The following is taken from a post of mine over at the Prophead Board (and perhaps here also), with some editing to clarify some language that didn't convey exactly what I was trying to say regarding the need for DBT listening tests:
"Just as the laws of nature (physics) govern how the cannonball and the feather will fall in a vacuum, the laws of nature (the laws that govern the physical universe) ultimately govern every process involved in the electronic reproduction of music including how we perceive that reproduction. Accordingly, at least theoretically, there is nothing involved in that process that should be beyond the ability of science to measure and explain.
Lets take a look at what we are talking about here. I assume we all can agree that sound travels in waves, and that the electronic reproduction of sound is explained by the processes that occurs at the microphone where sound waves are translated into electronic signal, at the point where that signal is somehow stored, and later at the point where that signal (in the form of waveforms that can be measured) are retrieved to be amplified and sent on to the speaker, where a process occurs which is essentially the opposite of what occurred at the microphone.
Ideally the sound waves emitted by the speaker would be identical to those that hit the microphone. Of course, everyone recognizes that with our current technology that is not possible. However, at each stage from microphone to speaker we have the technology to measure alterations that occur to the waveform of the electronic signal from the point it enters the given stage to the point it leaves that same stage, including temporal relationships. Thus, with respect to cables, if we look at the waveform, including temporal relationships, both at the input and output of the cable and find no difference, then, assuming we have measured the waveform going in to the cable and waveform going out, including temporal relationships, to a point of sensitivity greater than what is known regarding the sensitivity of human hearing (which isnt particularly good), and we see no measurable change caused by the cable, then I can see no way to conclude that the cable is affecting the wave form in its long journey from microphone to speaker.
Moreover, if we make those measurements on cable X and cable Y and neither shows any effect on the waveform, but in sighted auditions people claim they hear clear differences between the two cables, I can see no possible way that one could come to any other conclusion than that the differences are due to factors such as the attitude, beliefs and expectations of the people who perceive differences, rather than to anything the cables are actually doing or not doing to be responsible for such differences in perception. I would really like someone to explain how we could come to any other conclusion under such circumstances.
If the waveforms coming out of the speakers are identical as cable X and cable Y are switched in and out of the system, and assuming no other changes such as moving the speakers, then the waveforms hitting the listeners ear will not be changed by a switching of these two cables (because remember I am assuming the waveforms were shown in measurements to be identical using instruments capable of greater sensitivity than human hearing), and yet people claim to hear differences between cables X and cable Y, then the only explanation for such differences has to be what happens inside the heads of the listeners once the sound waves hit their ear drum.
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| My preliminary swan song (Part 2). | pctower
Nov 19, 2003 1:23 PM | | So, the processes involved in electronic reproduction of music, and the laws of nature that govern these processes are well known. Moreover, from what I understand we have instruments that can measure the effect these processes have on the shape and temporal relationship of the waveforms as they travel from microphone to speaker and on to ear drum. If no change can be found in the waveforms as they are emitted by the speaker, or even as they come out of the cable, regardless of whether cable X or cable Y is used, then we either have to conclude that differences have been perceived by the listeners because of (A) the placebo effect, or (B) because of some supernatural force that has never been documented in anything other than audio cables.
Now of course, if the measurements were to show that switching cables X and Y in and out of the system did cause a difference in the signal coming out of each cable significant enough to ultimately cause a difference in the waveforms emitted by the speakers, then one could properly conclude that it is possible that at least some of the differences perceived by the listeners between the two cables is due to an actual, measurable physical phenomenon occurring within the cable (although actual audibility of differences would have to be confirmed using proper control testing). However, to the best of my knowledge, such measured differences have never been made between two similar cables of similar length and gauge.
In short, the laws that govern the physical universe dictate both how the cannonball and the feather fall in a vacuum and how cables affect the waveforms. There is no room for subjectivity in any of this if the physical phenomenon going on between the input and output of the cables dont show some effect on the waveforms and/or their temporal relationships that is significant enough to cause an actual audible effect. In such a case, the subjectivity, of necessity, becomes solely a factor of what happens once the ear drum sends the nerve signals on the way to the brain."
Casting all modesty aside, I do not recall ever reading a more articulate statement of the naysayer position on this board.
I do want to add, that, while the above properly describes how I view this from a scientific point of view, I do continue to have questions about the reliability of the results that have been reported to date on cable DBTs. Further, I contend that raising such questions, as I have on this board, is not only consistent with the scientific method, but is absolutely demanded by it. |
| My preliminary swan song (Part 2). | mtrycrafts
Nov 20, 2003 12:10 AM | | b There is no room for subjectivity in any of this if the physical phenomenon going on between the input and output of the cables dont show some effect on the waveforms and/or their temporal relationships that is significant enough to cause an actual audible effect.
Well put:)
b In such a case, the subjectivity, of necessity, becomes solely a factor of what happens once the ear drum sends the nerve signals on the way to the brain."
Here too:)
b Casting all modesty aside, I do not recall ever reading a more articulate statement of the naysayer position on this board.
Isn't there a than...?
b I do want to add, that, while the above properly describes how I view this from a scientific point of view, I do continue to have questions about the reliability of the results that have been reported to date on cable DBTs. Further, I contend that raising such questions, as I have on this board, is not only consistent with the scientific method, but is absolutely demanded by it.
You are right. Question everything:)That is what happens.
But it is time for others to do some better DBT:)
If you do elect not to visit the new board, I also find it inconvenient to participate there, it has been an honor to exchange with you. |
| My preliminary swan song (Part 2). | pctower
Nov 21, 2003 11:01 AM | | b If you do elect not to visit the new board, I also find it inconvenient to participate there, it has been an honor to exchange with you.
Thanks mtry. As I told Tony above, I'm trying.
Thanks for your kind words. You are on my short list of "teachers" who have, in different ways, forced me to think, and think hard, especially about beliefs I really didn't want to re-examine. |
| My preliminary swan song (Part 2). | mtrycrafts
Nov 21, 2003 12:15 PM | | b I really didn't want to re-examine.
Not easy. Goes against human nature and one needs to be trained to do this. :) |
| PC, you ain't going nowhere. | Tony_Montana
Nov 20, 2003 1:19 PM | | As soon as argument heat up in the new forum, you be right smack in the middle of it  |
| PC, you ain't going nowhere. | skeptic
Nov 21, 2003 4:02 AM | | If I had a dollar for every time PC quit this board....I could buy a new pair of Vandersteen speakers.
Besides, who else would put up with him. (We have no choice.) |
| Tony, I'm trying... | pctower
Nov 21, 2003 10:57 AM | | to get used to the new format. It's the old dog, new trick type problem.
Believe it or not, it's the people, not the arguments, I'd miss the most. |
| Follow-Up | pctower
Nov 21, 2003 10:56 AM | | And here is someone who, as opposed to me, knows what he is talking about, who has done some actual testing:
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/prophead/messages/6780.html |
| Follow-Up | mtrycrafts
Nov 21, 2003 12:24 PM | | Very interesting indeed. I saw Steve Eddy's post ar rec audio high end:) Why am I not surprized of the outcome? |
| No maybe about it, Bill ... | mtrycrafts
Nov 20, 2003 12:11 AM | | Well, it was great to see you back on a regular basis. Maybe you will change your mind and stop in from time to time. :) I too find it inconvenient to participate there compared to here. |
| re: Are Total Idiots In Charge of this Planet? | mtrycrafts
Nov 16, 2003 8:18 PM | | I am having a difficult time there. :(
Not sure how I will adapt. |
| The messages will still be in ENGLISH | skeptic
Nov 20, 2003 6:32 AM | | Now I understand why audiophile speaker manufacturers put a $300 speaker system in a $10,000 piece of furniture. To those who claim that the new format is simply too much to bear, all I can say is adios. When life's inevitable changes overwhelm you to the point that this degree of change would make you give up something you say you enjoyed, I realize how inflexible and rigidly close minded some of the people who post here really are. Will you really go just because you don't like the appearance of the messages? Had it been that way before and they had switched to this format, I expect the same people would be making the same complaints. However, I believe that many of you are just whining crybabies and will be back. Especially the one who keeps quitting every few months because somebody or other hurt his feelings. Get over it. Move on. If you are going, then just shut up and go. |
| The messages will still be in ENGLISH | mtrycrafts
Nov 20, 2003 11:18 PM | | b Will you really go just because you don't like the appearance of the messages?
Appearence, no. Navigating, finding your posts and responses, maybe. Spending too much time just to find where I left off, who followed it up, who is posting to which message, which posts I have seen since the message doesn't change color to show your visit there, etc. |
| The messages will still be | RobotCzar
Nov 21, 2003 2:35 PM | | But, now that my wife has also left me, where will I go to get berated or told I am intellectually dishonest??
Just to go up against skeptic, whom I have enjoyed in this forum, I will point out that sheep get what they deserve (fleeced). If giving up this forum is hard (as apparently it is for skeptic) then perhaps you should consider getting a life. This forum is run to make money; they give us a slow, unresponsive forum (so they can count hits), but that isn't bad enough, they have to change to a format that is even worse. Why? Because change is inevitable? Grow a backbone, skep. If the hit count goes down, this forum might just think about what it is doing once in a while.
Go talk to your wife, or your scientist friends instead of insulting people in this forum for your entertainment. The truth is, this forum has about run its course. Little new is being said. The yeasayers, except for the dullards and adolescents, have left to mentally onanize in their restrictive forums. There aren't enough new people here to keep up the interest. And I'm tired of waiting for the Cables forum to plot and being part of a hit count for whoever runs this forum.
Can anybody suggest an alternative where I can continue to complain about audio ignorance? |
| The messages will still be | skeptic
Nov 21, 2003 2:54 PM | | "Can anybody suggest an alternative where I can continue to complain about audio ignorance?"
Of course I can. Complain to the wall. It doesn't answer back. And it doesn't tell you when you are acting the fool. It doesn't care.
Many other web sites have bulletin boards which use a format similar to this one. Those who enjoy this site like I do will have no problem using it. And then there are those who always find a reason to complain about anything in life. Speaking about getting a life, it seems to me that anyone who would complain that he doesn't like the appearance of the computer bulletin board he writes his meaningless little notions about something as inconsequential as audio cables on(and that includes what I write as well) when half the world is starving to death, being killed in wars, enslaved by barbaric monsters, or dying of AIDS or malaria, is a spoiled rotten jackass who should reconsider what is important in life and what is not. |
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