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|   Revolutions [carefull, SPOILERS] | IsmaVA
Nov 5, 2003 10:58 AM | | Waht a disapointment . . .
The first hour of the movie is completely irrelevant, they might as well started with Neo just waking up and kicking some Matrix butt.
What was the point of the Train Master?
What was the relevance of the little girl?
What was the uniqueness of the Kid?
What hapenned to "There is no spoon?
What about the Prophecy (the propellant of the first and second parts) and the "Source"?
What advantage does peace bring the machines now that Smith is gone?
Where do all those billions of humans "liberated" from the Matrix go now? To Zion?!!
How about an explanaition of HOW IN HELL could Neo disable the sentinels?
How come, at the end, everybody returned from their "Smith-cloning experience", but Neo?
Oh, well . . .it is just a movie after all . . . :-\ |
| re: Revolutions [carefull, SPOILERS] | GrendelZ
Nov 6, 2003 9:37 AM | | I agree there are a lot of plot holes here.Mainly how could Smith possibly take over the machine world,he is a program and like the humans would conceivibly have no power outside the matrix.
Also they did pretty much throw the whole prophecy thing out the window,if Neo didnt beat the machines and return the world to the humans why does it matter?The machines can still crush the humans any time they want,especially now that Neo isnt around.Basiclly the architect was the one who had it right,he layed it out pretty much as it happened in reloaded.
The little girl,Train master,kid,and frenchman really have no purpose.
The way it turned out makes all of the stories pretty much pointless,that being said I still enjoyed it very much.
I will still have to give the best trilogy prize to Lord Of The rings. |
| re: Revolutions [carefull, SPOILERS] | Kam
Nov 6, 2003 8:33 PM | | I'll give it a shot, not that i think my version of the answers will do any good, but...
Train Master - to show there is yet another place and not just black/white = matrix/real world, but also a pseudo purgatory between these worlds.
little girl - they called her The Last Exile which i didn't quite get, but i was thinking she was going to be the next 'shell' for the oracle to take.
Kid - sorry, which kid's uniqueness did you mean?
There is no spoon - solved in the first one, the whole un-reality of the matrix.
Prophecy - i think it was still there all along, that while the machines/arcitect began the prophecy for the humans to hold onto on that subconscious level, the belief in THIS neo grew so much so that even the machines themselves began to believe in him as well. hence their letting him re-enter the matrix to fight smith.
Peace w/o smith - am guessing here, but i think the machines are banking on the fact that most humans, like cypher, would prefer to stay in the matrix. they will have the choice now (i think) to exit to the hellish world as it is, or stay plugged in.
Liberated - i don't think there are billions of liberated, but i think, billions dead. when neo killed smith, and all the smiths wiped out, i think that wiped out the entire matrix and a new crop would have to be plugged in.
Neo's powers outside the matrix - i think this was showing that he was a true messiah, and they had a lot of Dune storylines in here if you've read the book. But just to show that he isn't just another "One" but a true "prophet."
I think the only return from the smith clone we see is The oracle. We never saw what happenned to the arcitect. I think the oracle and arctict are just repeate programs that can be uploaded when the matrix begins anew.
but, while there are some holes, like grendel, i just enjoyed it, thought it was a fun ride and the battle for the docks was very cool.
just some thoughts!
peace
k2 |
| re: Revolutions [carefull, SPOILERS] | IsmaVA
Nov 7, 2003 8:21 AM | | Yeap, the battle for the docks was AWESOME! It was so intense and barroque that a couple of times I forgot to breath, no kidding . . .
Anyway, I see your points, however, my question was more directed to the simbolic meaning of such characters than to their operational value. I see the extra information they provide, but do not see how they influence the outcome of the movie. They seem like extras without any real relevance.
The "Kid" was unique because he was the first and only known human to have exit de matrix on his own, without any external help from Neo et al. and their red pill.
Interesting your interpretation of the "Liberated" . . .
We not only see the oracle return, we also saw Saati and Seraph return.
Anyway .. :-\ |
| symbolism vs. operation | Kam
Nov 7, 2003 8:57 AM | | they lost symbolism of characters from reloaded onwards, which in some ways i can't really blame them given the monumental bar they set for themselves in the first movie. All the new characters didn't have the umph that the originals did. And the fight sequences in Reloaded had less meaning behind them then the first one. Every fight sequence in the matrix had a "reason" and "purpose" behind it that made sense. In reloaded, not so much. Revolutions was much better in this sense, that the fights they showed had a good reason behind them. Seraph fighting Neo in the teahouse to see if he was the One, was a pretty weak explanation. The whole, being told something versus knowing something for yourself explanation works in the first one when you're dealing with humans un-plugging their minds, not angel-inspired programs and the one. neo saw the blinding light around seraph, you know seraph saw something around neo. BUT, then you would have had to either take out a cool fight sequence, or come up with a better explanation.
This is the same problem i have with the star wars prequels, there is no purpose or reason behind any of the fights. And what purpose/reason there is, is weak. Prime example is Darth vs. Obi Wan in A New Hope. Dialogue cheesily great, everything riding on it, reason up the yazoo, purpose up to your eyeballs, shakespearian and kursawa inspired fight. Obi wan/Qui gon vs. Darth Maul - technically brilliant, but who really cares? Obviously obi wan is gonna win, but the dumbest use of suspension of belief around, after kicking TWO jedi's asses for about 20 minutes, maul is killed by a leaping jumping overhead with a half twist, lightsaber force grab and slash to cut him in half.... yeah... ok.... rrrrrrrrright.
sorry, just had to get in a star wars rant.
oh yeah, and saati and seraph's return i just took to mean they weren't cloned by smith just because we never saw them cloned by smith, but that's a weak "reason." hehe.
peace
k2 |
| symbolism vs. operation | IsmaVA
Nov 7, 2003 11:09 AM | | >>they lost symbolism of characters from reloaded onwards, which in some ways i can't really blame them given the monumental bar they set for themselves in the first movie. All the new characters didn't have the umph that the originals did. And the fight sequences in Reloaded had less meaning behind them then the first one. Every fight sequence in the matrix had a "reason" and "purpose" behind it that made sense. In reloaded, not so much. Revolutions was much better in this sense, that the fights they showed had a good reason behind them.
Completely agree! I think they were just overwhelmed with the compolicated plot they set out to create and discovere that they went over their heads.
>>Seraph fighting Neo in the teahouse to see if he was the One, was a pretty weak explanation. The whole, being told something versus knowing something for yourself explanation works in the first one when you're dealing with humans un-plugging their minds, not angel-inspired programs and the one. neo saw the blinding light around seraph, you know seraph saw something around neo. BUT, then you would have had to either take out a cool fight sequence, or come up with a better explanation.
DUDE, that is EXACTLY what I told my friends!
How in hell could Seraph not know that Neo was definitively the One, after all HE IS THE ONE, you know UNIQUE.
>>This is the same problem i have with the star wars prequels, there is no purpose or reason behind any of the fights. And what purpose/reason there is, is weak. Prime example is Darth vs. Obi Wan in A New Hope. Dialogue cheesily great, everything riding on it, reason up the yazoo, purpose up to your eyeballs, shakespearian and kursawa inspired fight. Obi wan/Qui gon vs. Darth Maul - technically brilliant, but who really cares? Obviously obi wan is gonna win, but the dumbest use of suspension of belief around, after kicking TWO jedi's asses for about 20 minutes, maul is killed by a leaping jumping overhead with a half twist, lightsaber force grab and slash to cut him in half.... yeah... ok.... rrrrrrrrright.
:-)
Once again, that was exactly my argument for considering that scene as pretty lame plot-wise.
>>oh yeah, and saati and seraph's return i just took to mean they weren't cloned by smith just because we never saw them cloned by smith, but that's a weak "reason." hehe.
But right before the Oracle is cloned, she ask about Saati and one Smith repeats what the Oracle told Saati about the cookies needing love. I took that as that Smith being the previous Saati. |
| oh yeah, and the Troy trailer!! | Kam
Nov 7, 2003 6:36 PM | | Looks awesome! Can't wait for this one to come out. Looks like it has the potential to kick some serious ass. What a great story to draw from and Wolfgang Peterson is a good director to helm this with Pitt as Achiles and Eric bana as Hector, great match up!
there were other trailers i remember being decent, but forgot them already when Troy came on! |
| Hey, I don't live in a trailer!! | Troy
Nov 8, 2003 11:58 AM | | Oh, great, a Brad Pitt gladiator movie with my name as the title . . . |
| oh yeah, and the Troy trailer!!/last sumari | recoveryone
Nov 12, 2003 8:13 AM | | I think the Tom Cruise trailer was better, be out soon |
| Craig Kilborn said it best... (spoilers!) | JazzHead
Nov 10, 2003 3:07 PM | | ... when he described "Revolutions" as "the third film of a one-film trilogy."
I thought "Reloaded" and "Revolutions" exhibited the same problems that the movie version and later seasons of "The X-Files" did - namely, that the creators (Chris Carter/Wachowskis) were expected (or believed) to have an overarching mythos in mind for the series, when they were really making it up as they went along. The first "Matrix" had three distinct acts, a conflict and a resolution. The next two did not advance the story in any meaningful way - they just extended it. All the ideas were front-loaded in the first film (or, in the case of "X-Files," the first three seasons). After that, it's just a bunch of sound and fury, signifying nothing.
For what it's wortth, my interpretation of a couple of scenes in "Revolutions" differs from yours, Kam. I believe the train station is not a point between the Matrix and the human (real) world, but between the Matrix and the machine (real) world. Both physical beings - man and machine - can coexist and interact in the Matrix, but are divided in the physical one. That is why Neo and the Zion leadership note that no one has ever been able to get near the machine city, and why the Trainmaster spits at Neo "you don't belong here." Humans move between their reality and the Matrix by jacking in (except for Neo after he evolves), while the machines move back and forth via the train.
The "last exile" remark about the little girl may refer to her being the last exile of the machines into the Matrix, given Neo's choice at the end of "Reloaded," which the Architect said would result in the destruction of Zion and the human race. Until the few remaining humans could build a new Zion, and the machines could begin developing new farms, there would be no need for a Matrix to plug all of those consciousnesses into. Remember, the Architect implied that the machines would be willing to exist at a much lower level, suggesting that they were prepared to destroy the whole structure of the Matrix and its human batteries to purify it of uncertainties and anomolies.
Finally, the Matrix still exists at the end of the movie - the Oracle, the Architect, and the little girl are clearly meeting in it - the sky and water are blue, the day is sunny, it's altogether swell - certainly nothing like any of the real, material worlds (Zion, the ruins of the human cities, the mnachine city) we saw previously. By the third film, Smith exists independently of the Matrix, just like Neo, and his destruction does not mean that the Matrix is destroyed.
I agree with IsmaVA - the question of what becomes of the billions of humans hooked up to the Matrix is the biggest, most gaping hole in the entire story. The physical earth as we've seen it is incapable of supporting them; Zion isn't scaled for it; and the machines sure as shootin' aren't about to go from being supported by humans to supporting them. This, more than anything else, suggests to me that the Bros. W. had little more than a vague idea of what was to happen after Neo took off at the end of movie #1.
peace.
jh. |
| Craig Kilborn said it best... (spoilers!) | GrendelZ
Nov 13, 2003 10:11 AM | | Man you really paid attention. |
| Craig Kilborn said it best... (spoilers!) | JazzHead
Nov 14, 2003 7:02 AM | | And I'll never get back those two hours of my life. |
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