|   Denon's new AVR models | Kirit
Jul 5, 2001 8:46 AM | | Hi guys! I am in the process of building a new HT system and in the quest for that I just came across something which can help the new perspective buyers of Denon AVR.
What I read is posted below in quote.
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Author Topic: DENON 'S New Models
HuskerHarley
Audio / Video Club
Posts: 14
From: LINCOLN,NEBRASKA
Registered: May 2001
posted July 02, 2001 04:45 PM
I talked with a representative of Denon Electronics (USA),(Richard Hartin) and asked him specific questions concerning Denon's model 3801, first question was it upgradable to Dolby pro logic II? His response was "NO". My next question was the 3801 still available? He informing me Denon no longer was producing the 3801,although if I checked around I probably could find one. Then he informed me of new model numbers coming out, 1601, 1801 and 3801 will now become models 1602, 1802 and 3802, he informed me there are no plans to change the 2801, the 02 designation will stand for(you guessed it)Dolby pro logic II. He also informed me, that Denon planed to keep the same price as the previous models. I asked him when I could expect to see these models?, and was told that the 3802 would begin shipping during the month of July! But did not have any dates when they would discontinue producing the 1601 and 1801, so no dates set for the 1602 and 1802. Let me add my opinion of the way Denon responded to my inquiry, I called and was told the gentleman I needed to speak with was out, so I left my number, he returned my call within an hour and he was very courteous and not put off by my obvious lack of knowledge about his products, he took time to explain to me the many features on his product lines and the pros and cons of one model over another, when I mentioned another brand he did not slam them and actually told me what was good about it vs. Denon! My hats off to a Company that takes time to talk to its customers.''
Link for the article.
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000177.html
Hope this helps.
Kirit |
| Great Post Thanks | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 9:04 AM | | It basically confirms what we've been saying if you really think that DPL II is worth 400.00 get the 3802 otherwise score yoursefl a 3801. |
| DPL II - What's the Big Deal? | Rave
Jul 5, 2001 3:54 PM | | What is the big deal about DPL II? I thought that Dolby Pro Logic was a step above Dobly Surround, but a step BELOW Dolby Digital. Since Dolby Digital is 5.1, and DPL is 4 channels (I think), why would someone even care if they improved an outdated technology? I realize I may be oversimplying things, so that's why I asked.
Thanks. |
| DPL II Huh | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 7:25 PM | | I'm not sold on it. Would I like to have it sure I would but thats because i want the latest and greatest. I don't think i would use DPL II. People who have VHS and LD have enjoyed it but for me I have no real use for it so it isn;t a deal breaker for me. |
| Problem is... | Josh Studrawa
Jul 5, 2001 10:03 AM | | you're always going to get a new model every year. Why? Honestly I have no clue (not a marketing major). I'd bet it's simply perception. You can have a 3801, 3802, and 3803 that are EXACTLY the same, just consecutive years, and most people (read: uneducated about electronics) will swear up and down the 3803 is the best. So maufacturers reproduce the same stuff with little or no upgrades just to have a current year model for us. In a more educated world, Denon could run the 3802 for years and have it be a great seller.
With computers, we're spoiled with patches via disc or internet. Some audio/video folks are starting that where they can (Toshiba). I second the notion of Denon upgrading somehow, have you considered speaking with someone at Denon and get the thought started there?
It's worse in the realm of automotive. The first Viper sold in Grand Rapids, Michigan went for $265,000 (from the sales guys mouth, *shrug*). That's for the "gotta have it first" type of people. Too bad they got stuck with the slower, governed one. Poor saps.
Either way, whatever you buy today will be better tomorrow. Up to you to determine whether you can wait or not. Sucks, but lets me go shopping more times a year :) |
| Greg.... | nick4433
Jul 5, 2001 10:58 AM | | My apologies for namecalling on the other day and as was evidenced by my previous posts, I do not retort to such things and I should know better. Let's just agree to disagree on that point and move on.
Your post on this thread is a pretty good one and thanks to Kirit for starting it and I hope it gains enough steam.
We as a forum can make a point collectively and add enough punch to make manufacturers see and understand a few points like Upgradability of equipment, the issue of unauthorized dealerships and warranties and many more.
Josh pointed out that in some way manufacturers find a way of feeding the buying community with new products each year. Maybe they are the ones releasing this deadly upgraditis virus?(hah)
I think it's time to put this forum to more serious use and form some sort of a coalition to make manufacturers more responsible for the products they sell.
BTW, is DPL-II the only difference or does the 3802 also offer THX-EX? |
| Well | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 11:11 AM | | I just can't help myself, the only difference that the 3802 will have is DPL II. Some have said that 10W more per channel is a possibility, although don't hold your breath since that would require an amp redesign. It will not be THX EX CERTIFIED, but in my opinion so freaking what. It will handle decoding of these discs the same way the 3801 did which mean you will get a matrixed 6th channel. For Greg's sake no thier is no mention of it in the manual but the 3801 will play and decode THX EX DVD movies. I have conducted my own tests on this matter as have many others and we are quite happy with the manner in which the 3801 and presumably the 3802 hanldes decoding of THX EX movies. |
| What's the difference between decoding and processing? | Josh Studrawa
Jul 5, 2001 11:25 AM | | Below you mention that the 3801 cannot process but can decode THX EX. What is the difference?
Find me a 3801 for $50. Thanks :) |
| THX Marketing | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 11:33 AM | | Receivers that are equipped with THX certification offer the "sound field" called THX or THX Processing. This engages the THX processor in the receiver. The THX processor in THX's opinion is the only processor that can accurately DECODE and PROCESS the THX algorithim. Those receivers without THX certificaion can not claim THX processing nor can they claim THX decoding. HOWEVER, if you have a 5.1 THX Certified DVD like aliens and you put in in your DVD player and play it, [sarcasm]AMAZINGLY ENOUGH[/sarcasm] your receiver will decode it as 5.1. In the case of THX EX your receiver if equipped with a 6.1 setup (Outlaw 1050, Denon 3801, etc) will decode a THX EX disc like Terminator 2 Ultimate edition as DD EX and thus will give you a matrixed 6th channel. Denon or outlaw can not however claim that it will decode or process THX EX, becasue of the lack of the THX logo and the THX processor.
Here is the actual text from the Denon 3801 and the Denon 5800 (THX certified) regarding THX EX DVDs:
3801: "Dolby Digital decoding, including Matrix 6.1 decoding"
5800: "Lucasfilm Home THX Cinema 4.0 and 5.1 post-processing; THX Surround EX decoding"
Basically it's like this pay some extra cash and you too can have a cool looking THX logo and the Lucas Film processing, or you can save your cash and get some movies.
And Lastly take the Denon AVR4800 vs. AVR 3801. The 4800 offers THX certification, is only 5.1, and offers 20 more watts per channel. The cost difference RETAIL is this:
3801: 1199.99
4800: 1999.99
Is THX Certification and 20 more watts worth 800.00? And of course remember you are going from 7.1 to 5.1 if you get the 4800. For me not a chance in hell. |
| Almost Forgot | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 11:37 AM | | Here is the actual text from the Denon 3801 and the Denon 5800 (THX certified) regarding THX EX DVDs:
3801: "Dolby Digital decoding, including Matrix 6.1 decoding"
5800: "Lucasfilm Home THX Cinema 4.0 and 5.1 post-processing; THX Surround EX decoding"
Basically it's like this pay some extra cash and you too can have a cool looking THX logo and the Lucas Film processing, or you can save your cash and get some movies. |
| THX Marketing may be better than we think... | Josh Studrawa
Jul 5, 2001 11:57 AM | | I understand now, thanks Adam and Nick.
Also, don't discount the fact that while Lucas may be laughing all the way to the bank... he's laughing at us too. But in a good way.
Sure, he makes the THX certification cost. BUT! It's also set a standard that manufacturers cannot ignore. They do their own THX decoding in their own way, but it's so much like THX EX that we cannot tell the difference. Lucas has given us a better (subjective I know) way to listen to a movie. Whether we pay or not, a receiver makes it known to us (in it's own way) that it can do THX EX or a reasonable facsimile thereof. A brand that has does not have THX EX on it will usually have some sort of matrix 6.1 to compete with a THX EX model. Thus we get a better sound. I doubt Lucas needs the cash also, but he probably could have made the certification free (do they actually pay to be certified?) if he does charge. |
| Understanding THX liscensing, processing.... | Terrence
Jul 5, 2001 2:31 PM | | So we clearly understand what THX EX is, what THX badge means.
First, THX and Dolby have the liscense on the NAME THX EX. Not on the decoding algorythm. The decoding algorythm is derived from the matrix process that was developed for cinema use, and its patents have long expired. So THX cannot patent the decoding or encoding process. That is why the Denon 3801 can have the decoding without the THX EX badge.
THX EX consists of more than just EX decoding. What puts the THX in EX is not the decoding, but signal processing that follows afterward. Re'eq, dynamic decorrolation, timbre matching, specific crossover points(80hz) delays on the center back channels etc.. If used as a total interactive package, you must get a liscense. If any one, or two of this processing modes are used, then no liscense is needed.
THX and Dolby own the name, not the decoding. THX owns the patents on the name, and a packaged group of signal processing circuits.
Terrence |
| Terrence... | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 2:42 PM | | So if I understand you correctly...THX and Dolby own the rights to THX EX Name but not the processing. Does this mean that the same decoding is done regardless of THX certification? If it does then that means the Denon 3801 is capable of THX EX decoding correct although it can't do the THX signal processing. |
| But more importantly... | Josh Studrawa
Jul 5, 2001 3:32 PM | | what am I missing if I have the decoding (in the 3801 for example), but not the processing?
Specifically, what sounds, effects, talking, "ambience" etc. |
| Thats right Adam, what you are missing Josh | Terrence
Jul 5, 2001 4:36 PM | | Adam,
If the Denon has matrix 6.1, then that is EX by another name. EX is decoded by a simple L+R circuit found in any dolby prologic decoder. What disguishes THX EX and matrix 6.1, is the added signal processing. That is why the outlaw can decode 6.1. The decoding/encoding process cannot be liscensed.
Smart devices was sued by Dolby and THX for using the name 3SX-EX on their matrix center rear processor. Since the technology that smart uses and true EX is different, what they were sueing for was the EX usage. Smart and Dolby/THX settled out of court, and smart removed the EX part from the decoder. Keep in mind, circle surround(smart liscences this product)and THX EX operate off of two different principles.
Josh, what you are missing is not a damn thing. Just answer these questions:
1. Why do I need dynamic decorrolation, when I already have stereo surrounds. Does it matter(to me) that the sound designer wanted mono surrounds in a portion of a movie, and THX processing is making it psuedo stereo? Do I mind my soundtracks being altered?
2. Do I mind that timbre matching applies very strong eq on the rear channels to do something that is not natural in real life? Sounds are SUPPOSE TO sound different as it passes from front to the sides. That is a natural occurrence in life. Do I mind that THX is making a un-natural alteration, to a natural occurrence?
3. Do I really need only one standard crossover point, or would I prefer adjustable crossovers, or a lower crossover point?
The delay to the rear wall speakers is necessary for alignment purposes, and is the only redeemable part of THX certification in the Digital world.
Lets face it, THX was truly necessary in the analog world. Its processing worked very well on analog video cassettes, and LD's. In the digital world, just about every processing mode becomes totally useless, and it becomes readily apparent that THX altered some standards and circuitry, but created new more damaging stuff like dynamic decorrolation just to keep the standards, and THX relevant.
Terrence |
| T. You Freaking Rock Thanks (nt) | Adam
Jul 5, 2001 7:26 PM | | |
| THX Marketing | VI
Jul 5, 2001 4:58 PM | | DON'T FORGET 3801 DECODES DTS ES DISCRETE WHILE 4800 CAN NOT DECODE DTS ES DISCRETE WITHOUT A SEPARATE AMPLIFIER. |
| Josh, I'll try... | nick4433
Jul 5, 2001 11:34 AM | | Decoding is the ability of a receiver to algorithmically interpret the encoded material on a DVD thus successfully decoding it. So if a 3801 recognizes the need to decode a THX-EX encoded disc, it will put it's algorithm to work and decode the material.
Processing on the other hand is the receiver's ability to EQ the decoded material to certain specifications, i.e. THX requirements. This would mean enhancing or flattening or decreasing of frequencies to make it sound more as was intended by the licensing authority such as THX.
So in short, Processing takes the decoded material and further tweaks it to THX's or someone else's specs.
BTW on the $50 for Denon, how about say give or take $700 more? |
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