|   HT Speakers | bdiamond
Oct 4, 2001 5:44 PM | | Folks,
Can anyone suggest a quality HT speaker system for around 900-1500 dollars? The system will be going into a family room that is 19.2 x 19.3 with a 20 foot high cathedral ceiling. Speaker size is critical, as my wife wants the smallest footprint possible, and of course I want the best sound for the money.
Thanks in advance for any help! |
| re: HT Speakers | ILuvDTS
Oct 4, 2001 7:56 PM | | Try the Energy Encore system and you won't be disappointed. For a lower budget try the Energy Take 5.2's. |
| Easy enough | Bryan
Oct 5, 2001 5:19 AM | | Or one would think it would be. You just need the speakers and sub correct?
Look at:
Ascend Acoustics CBM-170 package w/HSU VTF-2 - $1,100
nOrh 4.0 package ($850) w/SVS 20-39CS ($479) plus something to power the sub with ($175) - $1,500
Speakers:
Axiom
Paradigm
Ascend Acoustics
nOrh
B&W
Swan Diva
Subs:
HSU
SVS
Paradigm
Adire Audio |
| Your are going to have problems with this........ | Terrence
Oct 5, 2001 6:56 AM | | Small speakers in a big room is a real problem. Your ceiling height adds a considerable amount of volume to your room. It is essentially a 20ft cube. This requires alot of power to fill with even moderate levels of sound. The single 8" woofer found in the energy systems sub will never be able to fill the room with even a moderate amount of sound because it is just too small.
Big rooms require big speakers and amps for clean sound reproduction. With only 1500 dollars to spend, it is not likely you will be able to put together a sound system that will stay clean during high level peaks found in alot of DVD's.
Your wifes goals, and yours do not match. Thats a problem. If you want the best sound for your money, I would suggest you try and talk her into letting you purchase speakers and amps that fit your size room. Ultimately, you will be alot more satisfied with the results.
I have been a acoustical consultant for high end hometheater installations for 12 yrs. In fully 60% of the cases that I have been asked to clean up after other installers, I found speakers that were too small for the room was the problem. Most of them picked the right amps, but the speakers were compressing, and sounding hard at peaks. That is a sign of distortion. Don't let this happen to you. The clients were pretty pissed when I showed them the problem. Buying two sets of speakers was obviously not in their budget.
Big rooms require big efficient speakers, subs and amps for low distortion.
Terrence |
| Your are going to have problems with this........ | speedlever
Oct 5, 2001 8:00 AM | | I think you'll find that Klipsch and Axiom are some of the more efficient speakers out there.
For example:
Axiom M60Ti is rated: Room Sens 1w/1m (db): 95
Same for the VP100
M3ti is 93 dB. |
| can they fill a large room with clean sound? | Terrence
Oct 5, 2001 8:18 AM | | Efficency, is only good if you want to use a small amp. That is no gage for maximum sound level. A smaller speaker may be efficient, but may only play to 90dbs cleanly and without compressing the sound. In larger rooms, that could be less. From experience, I have never heard a speaker with a 4,5,or 6" mid/woofer that could play cleanly in a room the size of the original poster's. Even from 100hz up.
Also keep in mind, this mans ceiling is as tall as the room is wide and long. The speaker "see's" the total volume of the room. If this room is not enclosed, then the speaker see's that area too.
No way a small speaker can do this. And really no way a sub with a 8" woofer can do the job. For rooms this size, you need big subs and big efficient speakers. Nothing less will do.
Terrence |
| can they fill a large room with clean sound? | speedlever
Oct 5, 2001 9:49 AM | | >>For rooms this size, you need big subs and big efficient speakers. Nothing less will do. <<
Good point.
As you said in your earlier post, $1500 ain't gonna cut it in that room. (assuming he wants reference level volume)
But I doubt he'll do better for the money he mentioned. If that's the limiting factor, wouldn't a higher efficiency speaker be a primary consideration (assuming the sound is acceptable)? |
| effecfiency is is only half the equation....... | Terrence
Oct 5, 2001 12:44 PM | | Speed,
What good would a speaker be if it was 95dbs with 1 watt 3ft away, if it can only play cleanly to 85 or 90dbs peak in that size room? Think of it, thats like putting quintets in his size room. Quintets in a 19x19x20 room, thats insane!! Remember the high ceiling is over your head. The speakers "see" this volume. So even if the maximum volume the poster wanted to have was 95db, in that size room the speaker would have to put out alot of volume. Even if the speaker is very efficient, it would still have to play very loud to fill even a moderate size room with a common ceiling height, let alone 20ft.
A efficient speaker may require less power to play a 95db peak, but the drivers still have to reproduce the volume. The bigger the room, the harder they have to work to reproduce that volume. To keep the sound clean, beefier drivers have to be used. The beefier the driver, the more cabinet volume that is required to house it.
There is no way $1500 is going to cut it. The sub required to fill that room is going to cost almost a $1,000. That is if he chose the very minimum required. The room would really need two subs to play cleanly through peaks. Either he is going to have to raise his budget, or severly lower his expectations of good quality sound from his purchase. No speaker "packages" currently offered will do it in this size room.
If the original poster is going to do this right, he is going to have to negotiate for a larger budget, and more space in the room. Man, when my wife was alive, she never complained about anything to do with my hometheater. Not ever. I have really come to appreaciate her more and more.
Terrence |
| Terrence knows home theater | Richard Greene
Oct 5, 2001 1:51 PM | | So listen to him!
Interesting comment about your wife Terrence.
Similar comments would apply to my wife.
About five years ago I asked her if she would mind if
I bought two 500 CD racks to place in our living room
where my main stereo is. Did she complain?
No, she argued that I should buy three 500 CD racks,
not two! So of course I bought two racks.
And about a year later I ran out of room and
needed a third rack. Of course they had been discontinued
and I couldn't find a third matching rack.
Not only are women a lot better looking then men,
they are smarter too.
Some people are not fully appreciated ...
until they are gone.
About small speakers:
I have owned so many speakers in my life that I could not possibly guess how many pairs I've had at home + many pairs I built myself.
I currently have three pairs of small speakers in three systems at home. The only way to obtain high-end sound quality from small
two-way speakers in a large room (let's say over 300 square feet)
is:
(1) listen at low volumes (only 75-80dBA average for me)
(2) sit close to speakers (I sit only 6 feet from my main system's
small L-R speakers)
(3) Add a high quality well-integrated subwoofer (with a dedicated subwoofer equalizer needed for most rooms)
The only small two-way speaker I have ever heard that could play cleanly above 85dBA (like many full range three-way speakers can)
was the Legacy Audio Studios, whose weak treble was a problem for me or I might now own a pair.
Excluding people who place their front and center speakers inside their home entertainment furniture, the most serious problems I hear with home theaters are:
(1) mediocre center speakers that don't match left-right speakers
(2) misguided attempts to fill large rooms with small speakers.
If you can't afford appropriate new speakers for your room, buy used speakers that are appropriate. I buy used speakers all the time. |
| Richard, Terrence...... | nick4433
Oct 5, 2001 3:03 PM | | Thanks for the wonderful info on speakers and HT in general. Upon reading your posts time and time again do I realize that "sound" is so deep and there is so much to learn out there that the knowledge I possess is nothing to what you guys have to offer. Keep it coming.
Now on to my matter at hand. I have a rectangle shaped room measuring 23W X 8H X 16D. I have the Klipsch RF3 as fronts(suggested by you know who), RS3 as surrounds and RC3 as center matched with a 3801 and an Energy ES-10 sub. Now in a recent post where I mentioned I was happy with this arrangement and the Bass seemed more than sufficient, I was promptly labeled a 'chicken'(by this same you know who) for buckling under the wife's pressure. Jokes apart but my wife is a big HT fan who appreciates good sound.
More seriously, question is are they enough to fill a room this size and are they an overkill? And would they be enough to fill a room similar in size but with cathedral ceiling? |
| Actually Nick..... | Terrence
Oct 5, 2001 4:51 PM | | An SVS 20-39 would be perfect for your room. In combination with the speakers you already own(I love anything klipsch), and your size room, the sound would be fantastic once you dialed everything in.
Now when you talk about cathedral ceilings, it depends on how high the ceiling is that I would begin to think about using subs in pairs.
Nick, you will not beleive how much deep bass is under what your energy can provide in your size room. I'll bet in your room, the energy will begin to roll off rapidly below 30hz. You would be astonished at what bass sounds like below that. Real, clean bass.
One of the joys of having a sub that goes to 20hz, is that the soundtrack that contains that kind of bass becomes visceral, and well as sonically involving. For instance, I comment in the film forum that I watched Cutthroat Island the other night. On this movie contains cannon blast with incredible energy between 16-25hz. When they went off, you could feel the pressure wave hit you in the chest, the floor shudder, and the air shake in the after glow of the bass wave. Its pretty intense when you have a speaker that can cleanly reproduce it.
Your room has pretty good deminsions for good sound. THX recommends that rooms built from the ground up using their standards, should be approximately 16x24x10. Really close to your deminsions. But Nick, the bad news, They require two subs in a room that size buddy. Hate to break it to ya, but you need to get off the club, go back to your caveman instincts, hit her on the head, drag her to the computer, order the SVS, then promise her a rose garden and await your order. It worked for me, and when I got the product, I usually had to fight her for what movies to watch because they love the sound as much as I did :)
That was a message from Mr. T. And now a word from our sponsers.......
Terrence |
| Actually Nick..... | nick4433
Oct 5, 2001 8:10 PM | | Thanks T. I appreciate the input as always. So, not one but two SVSs? I better start selling some of Adam's stuff with the power of attorney I have and we'll see.
But seriously, 2 subs? And you are sure they won't be an overkill? I believe I can convince the wife for one SVS and slip it during Christmas. But two will guarantee me a room in the doghouse and I don't even have a dog. Hmmm, now a tent in the backyard? |
| One should be fine | Bryan
Oct 8, 2001 6:04 AM | | As long as it is a CS-Ultra. ;^) |
| Actually Nick..... | Josh Studrawa
Oct 8, 2001 8:18 AM | | T, for my Mirage sub (FRx-S15) is the only way to confirm the low end via an SPL meter? Do I not trust the 18Hz rating on their website?
Cutthroat sounds great at home, but I don't want to miss anything. |
| effecfiency is is only half the equation....... | speedlever
Oct 6, 2001 5:29 AM | | >>What good would a speaker be if it was 95dbs with 1 watt 3ft away, if it can only play cleanly to 85 or 90dbs peak in that size room?<<
No argument from me! I'm just trying to be better educated myself.
So how does one go about chosing appropriate speakers to audition?
1st: check room size (volume)
2nd: determine listening level desired
3rd: calculate size of drivers/box to generate required SPL
4th: scan the specs of speaker mfgs to determine who makes speakers which meet the requirements
5th: find a local dealer of said speakers
6th: go listen!
;-)
BTW, good luck to the original poster. I think his requirements and limitations put him between a rock and a hard place. |
| re: HT Speakers | bdiamond
Oct 5, 2001 6:12 PM | | Guys,
Thanks very much for you replies. I was off on the room dimensions however; the room is 19.3 x 15.3 with the 20 foot high ceiling. I'm not sure if this make much difference, but thought I would note it. I really won't be able to win the battle for larger speakers, as both the budget and my wife won't allow for it. That being said, what would be the best system based on those constraints? My components are as follows:
Sony 32" XBR
Sony STR DB 830
Sony DVP S330
Thanks!
Bill |
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