|   Even moving your speakers few inches will make a difference! | KiD SmokE
Jul 30, 2002 4:12 PM | | Last night due to carpet cleaning, I had to move speakers. But before put it back in its place, I got out a 3 feet ruler and got scientific about it.
I placed and measured each speaker distance from back and side walls and increment or decrement by one inch back and side distance. The manual said that best sound from speakers (Bose 4.2 Series II...contrary to popular belief, these speakers rocks) is when speakers are less than 18 inch from back and between one to three feet from side walls (and at least six feet from each other)-so these are the numbers I started out with.
After much trial and error, the optimum distance I found were 12 inches from back and 27 inches from side wall (about seven feet between speakers). I notice that even if I move speakers one inch from either side, not only bass is effected but also imaging and trebles-to lesser degree.
So get you ruler out and start measuring :) |
| Did you calibrate the ruler? n-t | pinetop
Jul 30, 2002 4:26 PM | | |
| All kiding aside kid | pinetop
Jul 30, 2002 4:35 PM | | Yes it will make a difference even a slight toe in or out will make a difference.A good rule of thumb is the 80% distance if you sit 10 feet from the main speakers they should be 8 feet apart and so on. Got that off a box of tv time popcorn. bob d |
| I wonder how an engineer would attack this problem? | KiD SmokE
Jul 30, 2002 10:21 PM | | That sound like a good rule, but it might not work if room is larger than 15 feet (length wise) which will put the side walls too far away from speakers. Speaker seem to sound better if they are within vicinity of a side wall (within couple of feet of.....at least that what my tweaking showed).
I wonder how engineers would attack a problem like this....side wall "vicinity" vs speakers distance from each other? There seem to be a delicate balance between two :) |
| I wonder how an engineer would attack this problem? | kelsci
Jul 30, 2002 10:36 PM | | I believe my master bedroom falls into this category. Two types of speaker systems design a few inches away from the sidewalls work well but in this case they are playing above ear level. One design I will simply discuss is about the most common made, the two way speaker where the tweeter is mounted inline above the woofer. I have tried three ways made like this; the added midrange will make the sound IMO rather irritating and annoying. |
| At least 12inches away from side walls n-t | pinetop
Jul 31, 2002 3:15 AM | | |
| I wonder how an engineer would attack this problem? | pinetop
Jul 31, 2002 4:14 AM | | Smoke the front speakers should be at least 12 inches away from side walls.you should allow equal distance from each side wall.I know sometimes it can't be done because of door ways etc.The speaker also should be 18inches from front walls this is a starting point,tweak from there. And most important tweeters at ear level,toe in toe out no rule here just your ears.Pinetops rule toe out if speakers sound to bright toe in if they sound dull. This method should work with bass reflex designs also.The klipsch horn system need not apply to this thread. bob d |
| Pinetop, I think we are back in square one. | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 12:31 PM | | Your distance from side and back walls are valid, but what was the concern about is also the distance between speakers. In a large room, if we place speakers within vicinity of side and backwall, then the distance between speakers might be too great (more than 8 feet) which will cause the image to suffer. I was wondering how one would tackle this problem :) |
| Pinetop, I think we are back in square one. | pinetop
Jul 31, 2002 1:46 PM | | Smoke so long as you have 12inches from side wall you are ok,it don't matter if the speakers are 2feet 3 feet 4 feet from the side walls so long as the distance is equal. Example 2feet from right side wall and 2 feet from left side wall. It can even be in inches so long it's more than 12inches from the side wall. I made up a quick table for you
If you sit 20 feet from the front speakers the speakers should be placed 16 feet apart. 15 feet=12feet apart 10feet=8 feet apart 5feet=4feet apart. The 80% rule wich is from Roy Allison. bob d |
| re: Even moving your speakers few inches will make a difference! | kelsci
Jul 30, 2002 10:25 PM | | KID; This is a subject that I do not see anything written about, but has the potential to make a break a stereo or stereo surround system from sounding properly. Your own findings in your post verify the importance of this procedure. To discuss what I do to align my systems would turn into a thesis. The tools I use are a ruler and a bubble leveler. With the ruler, I do about the same procedure you performed on your speakers.
Over the years I have developed a set of rules of alignment for a surround system in a rectangular room. I do not toe in the left and right speakers though. There is only one speaker I recommend for a toe in. That is the top cube of the double cubed bose systems. The bottom cube should be toed outwards. Those speakers will come to life and rock too.
I could not find the speakers you own on the bose website. |
| Damn Kelsci, we do think alike :) | KiD SmokE
Jul 30, 2002 11:09 PM | | I thought I was the only one with a ruler :)
I agree with you that it could make or break a system. I was using Stevie Wonder's song "Just called to say I love you" (very nice bass and highs notes) as the reference music. When speaker were out of alignment, the highs seem to be constrained (as oppose to be open) and bass was definitely muddy. But once speakers were aligned, it all seemed to come together like a puzzle :)
These Bose speakers are older model via '94. Bose don't make them any more. I was looking at its small sibling model 301 and you can tell the quality is just not the same anymore (hard wood vs plastic). The weight alone is a good indication :) |
| KID: you did not need a double blind test for this . | kelsci
Jul 31, 2002 12:38 AM | | You depended on your sense of hearing related to tone and dispersion of sounds to have your system sound correct. Interesting how one can come up with an experiment and make some amazing findings. |
| And put those front tweeters at ear level Kid n-t | pinetop
Jul 31, 2002 3:27 AM | | |
| I am going leave the DB test to Mtry :) | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 12:40 PM | | Beside If I was blinded, I would not find my beer :)
>You depended on your sense of hearing related to tone and dispersion of sounds to have your system sound correct.
Sometime the simplest approach is the best way to tweak one's system. If I was using a SPL meter, pink noise, and other calibration rule, I still be tweaking and there still be no guaranty of satisfactory results :) |
| re: Even moving your speakers few inches will make a difference! | wanderingbob
Jul 31, 2002 6:29 AM | | Excellent point! I, too, found that speaker placement makes a significant different in the overall sound. I used a tape measure and essentially set up the mains and the listening position in an equilateral triangle (the same distance between the speakers and from each speaker to the listening position). I have found that using masking tape to mark positions on the floor makes the measurements much more precise. You can mark increments on the masking tape for even greater precision. After I determine exactly where I want the mains, I leave masking tape on the carpet under the edge of the speakers so that if I ever have to move them, I can put them back in exactly the same spot without having to re-measure.
I should admit here that my audio setup is still far from optimal because of limitations of my listening room. I hope to someday build a listening room from scratch according to exact dimensions.
Bob Gardner
wanderingbob@yahoo.com |
| Thanks Bob :)...nt | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 10:24 PM | | |
| I really hate to bring this up....but... | MonstrousMike
Jul 31, 2002 7:07 AM | | As a cable forum guy, I have an observation on this post.
It seems you are all in agreement that even slight changes to speaker position will cause noticible sound changes.
Now consider the guy who has just bought expensive new speaker wires and rushes home to install them. He probably hasn't even taken off his shoes.
Is not plausible that in his excitment to replace his old speaker wires, he has inadvertently moved his speakers enough to cause a sonic change? And could he not, being a sane and grounded audiophile, attribute the change in sound to his new speaker wire?
Just food for thought. |
| I really hate to bring this up....but... | _Luke_
Jul 31, 2002 7:36 AM | | I thought the same thing but from a different angle. Maybe the guy who bought the cables puts the speakers in exactly the same spot and to his hearing, the sound is better. If one can argue the fact that speaker placement affects the quality of the sound without DBT or accurate measuring devices, then the argument for better cables can also be made.
It's all in what the listener perceives to be better sound. If it's because of an internal desire to hear better sound because they paid $1000 for speaker cable, so what?
I should have prefaced this by saying I don't subscribe to expensive cables=much better sound but intelligent discourse rather than arguments and attacks would allow people to make their own decision. And I am not trying to make this a cable debate. I go to the cable forum when I'm looking for that entertainment. |
| Or we could just talk some more about big breasts :) | _Luke_
Jul 31, 2002 7:39 AM | | By the way, anyone get the new issue of Playboy Mag. Yowsah! |
| Or we could just talk some more about big breasts :) | pinetop
Jul 31, 2002 10:22 AM | | For best results they need to be placed on spiked sand filled speaker stands, ear level slightly forward of the listening position with a slight toe in.I have experimented with this position with positive results.And make sure the nipples are aimed in the direction of the listener. bob d |
| Lets talk about wires, and then we talk about breast :) | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 12:54 PM | | Luke I see where you are coming from on this wire issue and I do agree with mots of it. Nut your following statement might need little more discussion:
>If one can argue the fact that speaker placement affects the quality of the sound without DBT or accurate measuring devices, then the argument for better cables can also be made.
You see that is where all problem come form. It probably can be proven without reasonable doubt that speaker movement does effect the sound, but what can not proven is if wires make a difference. Statics and measurement point to the opposite way and all we have to go by is hearsay :) |
| OK, wires first....... | _Luke_
Jul 31, 2002 1:28 PM | | "It probably can be proven..." makes my point. Yes, it *probably* can be shown to improve the sound. But in both cases, without the use of measuring devices, it's a subjective determination, and the only one that can make that determination is the listener.
In fact, whether it can be proven or not doesn't matter to me, because I believe that it can. In fact, I have the night planned to do just that (woohoo!).
My point is that whether having the placement discussion above or the cabling discussion, the measuring device is the same, the human ear. In each case, the listener decides the sound is better with new equipment/placement. Regardless of the cost, the outcome is the same, the listener is pleased with the results.
I can think of a multitude of ways I would rather spend $1K than for cables. But it is interesting reading the discussion on the subject. Of course, it was funny hearing your impression of Jon Risch too, so maybe I should just shut my yap and keep being entertained. |
| To hell with wires....... | MonstrousMike
Jul 31, 2002 1:45 PM | | Let's do a double blind test on breasts. Me first!
OK, everybody has to bring one breast. Wait, that won't work.
Everybody chip in and we'll freak out some hookers? |
| Luke, Mike was doing Jon Risch impression, not me :) | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 2:39 PM | | Luke , you wrote:
>Of course, it was funny hearing your impression of Jon Risch too, so maybe I should just shut my yap and keep being entertained.
Mike was the one that was doing Jon impression, Luke. I was the one crying:
<a href="/crforum?14@@.ef8dbec/56">MonstrousMike "Comprehensive List Of Audio Myths / Voodoo?" 7/23/02 3:24pm</a>
Back to wires <img src="http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/images/smilies/chatter.gif">; IMO what make the issue of wires such a hot topic is because one don't know as what improvements to look for. For example while I was evaluation speaker location, I was paying very close attention to imaging, bass and highs (three main parameter of speaker sonic quality) because mainly speaker location does influence these parameter.
What make evaluating wire so hard is that two main parameter of how speaker sound is deleted from this evaluation since wires do not effect imaging or bass. The only thing left for us to go on is how speakers "highs" sound since having too long a wire (above 40 feet) will indeed have high roll-off effect (due to wire inductance..worst case scenario).
Once this issue is resolved (shorter cables), then there is nothing else we can evaluate speakers's wires against. That is where imagination start running wild :) |
| Apologies.....it was funny, though. | _Luke_
Aug 1, 2002 6:09 AM | | I've heard all the wires claims and at this point I really don't know what to believe about them. I would have to hear a change myself to become a believer.
I've heard the cable guys talk about all the sonic improvements the different IC's and speaker cables bring, including improvements in imaging, bass, highs, soundstage, etc., etc. My point is this - using your ears to determine change is the least objective measuring tool available. Using them to determine improvement in your system, whether it's in adjusting speaker placement or upgrading cables needs to be left to the ear of the listener. If that ear detects an improvement, then there can't be an argument.
I'll leave it there until the next round over at the cable forum.
Anyway, glad your re-positioning worked out. I didn't get to do mine as I had hoped, but I expect the same improvements you got. |
| OK, wires first....... | mtrycrafts
Jul 31, 2002 7:30 PM | | b the measuring device is the same, the human ear
Well, it is not a very good measuring device at all. But, it is good at pleasing you.
b In fact, whether it can be proven or not doesn't matter to me, because I believe that it can.
Maybe then I should just believe in psychics? Homeopithy? Holistic healing? Levitation, alien abduction? |
| OK, wires first....... | _Luke_
Aug 1, 2002 6:22 AM | | No argument, it is good at pleasing you. And if it's the new IC's that happen to be pleasing you, then I guess cables do make a difference.
I don't think I was very clear with the second statement. I was referring to speaker placement being proven. As I said above, I do beleive speaker placment has an impact on the quality of sound. Cables, I don't know. But I'm keeping an open mind.
As far as alien abduction and the rest. No I don't believe. But I can't completely discount their existence. No one made me the Determiner of Reality. |
| OK, wires first....... | mtrycrafts
Aug 2, 2002 11:01 PM | | b I don't think I was very clear with the second statement. I was referring to speaker placement being proven.
That's better :) |
| Great point, MONSTEROUS M. (no text) | kelsci
Jul 31, 2002 12:23 PM | | |
| Excellent point... | Woochifer
Jul 31, 2002 5:00 PM | | I came to the same conclusion a few months ago when I was repositioning my speakers. And it's not just where on the floor the speaker goes -- the toe-in can also make a huge difference. After reading some of Terrence's posts and other pieces around the 'net, I decided to try to rearrange my speakers such that they approximated the ITU multichannel speaker placement standard (diagram below). I can tell you that it made a huge improvement, even with my oddly shaped and hard surfaced room. (And using some acoustic panels behind the speakers made a startling change to the imaging.)
Actually measuring the distances and angles showed just how asymmetrical my original setup was. My method was actually pretty simple -- I just took a piece of string and taped it to the floor. I used a 30-60-90 triangle to note the offset from center (starting at 30 degrees and then narrowing it slightly), and marked the string to make sure that the speakers were equidistant. This also ensured that my toe-in angle was consistent.
My speakers are still only 12" away from the wall (necessary because my room's narrow), so I could only imagine how much better it could be if I had more space to play with! |
| Excellent point... | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 10:16 PM | | Hey Wooch
>My speakers are still only 12" away from the wall
Is that distance from Side or Back wall, and how did you determine your "best" speaker distance from back-wall? |
| Excellent point... | Woochifer
Aug 1, 2002 11:25 AM | | It's the distance from the backwall. When I realigned my speakers at a 30 degree offset angle, it also moved one of the speakers fairly close to a corner with a brickwall and the bookcase where all my equipment goes. That created some issues with the bass, but the overall sound with the new alignment was a lot better, so I shrugged it off as a compromise.
The distance from the backwall was pretty much dictated by the narrow room -- as far away from the wall as possible without the speakers getting up in my face. I've read various recommendations, but they seem to recommend at least 18" from the back and sidewalls (some recommendations are as high as 3' of distance), but I don't have that kind of space, so can't do it. Also, I've read that the speakers should be about 8' apart -- in my room, I have them spaced in a quasi-equilateral triangle with the spacing at a little less than 6'. Again, less than ideal but the best that I can manage from my room.
I neglected to post the ITU placement diagram yesterday, so here it is... |
| Thanks for diagram Wooch. | KiD SmokE
Aug 1, 2002 11:41 AM | | Yes, I know about speaker placement comprises. My speaker's tweeter and midrange are not aimed at listener at all, but rather they are aimed at opposite walls (one to its side wall and the other to the opposite wall). So when I alighted these baby, I had to walk a fine line between your diagram, Pinetops distance formula and my room setup. |
| Dang, all that measuring has me in a spin..... | nick4433
Jul 31, 2002 8:34 PM | | Now where are the promised big breasts????? |
| Trying to keep this thread "PG" rated :) | KiD SmokE
Jul 31, 2002 10:23 PM | | Beside, didn't you get enough breast in your post yesterday. I thought that might hold you for a week :)
. |
| I gave up on that thread when Pinetop.... | nick4433
Aug 1, 2002 7:18 AM | | started talking about turkeys!(LOL) |
| LOLOLOL....nt | KiD SmokE
Aug 1, 2002 11:43 AM | | |
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