|   To 7 Channel or not | matt123
Apr 30, 2003 12:21 PM | | I'm shopping for my first home theater and
now debating between 5+1 speaker set-up vs.
7+1 speaker setup.
I read info at dolby.com and they say
'Dolby Digital Surround EX' will make use
of the 7+1 speaker setup.
Does it really make a significant difference
to justify extra cost on the additional
speakers and a supporting receiver? I'd
definitely like to hear from those who have
listened in both setup.
Thanks in advance.
Matt |
| re: To 7 Channel or not ... NOT! | woodman
Apr 30, 2003 1:49 PM | | Matt:
Don't lose even a minute's sleep over this decision ... 5.1 is all you really need. A rear center speaker CAN be a good thing to have, but only if your room lends itself to such a setup. So-called 7.1 is a scam - a shameful marketing ploy that (hopefully) will recede into the shadows. Even 6.1 will never ever gain a major foothold with the public, and might very well disappear as well! There just aren't enough homes across the land where it's feasible in order to make the format popular, IMO. As of today, only around 1% (maybe even less) DVD titles have 6.1 channel soundtracks. When you consider that within that tiny number there might be only a couple of titles that YOU'd be interested in, you can quickly see the folly in the whole idea. Chances of the vast majority of DVDs being released with 6.1 sound are pretty piss-poor from where I sit (and my crystal-ball is VERY accurate - at least it has been for a whole bunch of years). In order to jusify spending the money to do it, the movie-makers have to see a potential demand, which so far hasn't really developed and I don't expect that it will.
Hope this helps you
woodman |
| re: To 7 Channel or not ... NOT! | Quagmire
May 2, 2003 3:37 AM | | "So-called 7.1 is a scam - a shameful marketing ploy that (hopefully) will recede into the shadows."
I disagree. All home 6.1 systems are based on developments which first took place in commercial theater systems -- the technology emerged there and is now making its way into home systems. Nothing unusual (or shameful) about that, its the way the entire home theater market was created.
Not disagreeing that 6.1 systems may not be a practical choice for everyone; Terrence's checklist makes alot of since to me. For those with the budget, the right room parameters, and the desire, 6.1 systems can sound awesome. And remember, any 6.1 system will be just as competent at 5.1 processing. These systems certainly aren't for everyone, but I don't think they are a scam either.
Q |
| You misread me, Q ... | woodman
May 3, 2003 4:01 PM | | ... I never said that 6.1 systems are a scam. You quoted me correctly when I said:
i "So-called 7.1 is a scam - a shameful marketing ploy that (hopefully) will recede into the shadows."
But then you went on to disagree with me - saying that
b 6.1
systems aren't a scam but are the natural evolution of multi-channel audio as it was developed for movie theaters. I have no quarrel with that, but while 6.1 is viable (sometimes) 7.1 IS a scam - simply because (as Terrence pointed out) such a thing simply doesn't exist - never did - never will!
Plus I agree with what Terrence posted about the matter - only disagreeing with HIM when he says that he expects 6.1 to become the norm rather than the exception that it is at present.
woodman |
| You misread ME Woodman!!! | Sir Terrence the Terrible 1
May 3, 2003 5:09 PM | | "only disagreeing with HIM when he says that he expects 6.1 to become the norm rather than the exception that it is at present."
Woodman(as I pull my shirt to the floor) I NEVER said that 6.1 was going to ever, EVER be the norm. Where did you get that from?
All I stated is that things change, and just like Dts was considered a nitch format and it turned out not to be things can change for the 6.1 format.
That is a far cry from saying that 6.1 will become the norm. The format is only supported by three major studios, and several smaller less known studio's. It will never become the norm at that rate. However, if four or five films are released per year with the quality of Gladiators, The Haunted, Seven, Rush hour 2, and Lord of the Rings 6.1 soundtracks are, then it is fully worth the investment for me. All of these movies sound stunning in 6.1
Sir Terrence |
| You misread me, Q ... | Quagmire
May 4, 2003 9:41 AM | | As I understand it, the so called "7.1 system" is simply a version of 6.1 systems where two rear center speakers are used rather than one. While the designation of 7.1 is a misnomer in that no such discrete system exist (that's why I never used the term in my first post), the recommendation for two rear center speakers is legitimate.
But the greater point being made here is that, whether correctly labeled or not, all such systems which employ the use of a rear center speaker or speakers do offer real sonic advantages, providing that certain criteria are met. As I stated earlier, it's true that these systems aren't for everybody or for every room, but where feasible and if the desire exists, they will offer real sonic rewards for the effort. I use multiple direct radiating speakers along the side walls in my 5.1 system: I don't refer to it as a 7.1 system, even though I'm using more that two surround speakers, but I can tell you that the use of arrays of direct radiating speakers along the side walls will sound superior to any system utilizing only two direct radiating surround speakers. I only bring this up to point out that the same logic applies to the rear center surround location.
As a matter of educating fellow audio enthusiasts, it is appropriate to point out that technically, the 7.1 system designation is in error. But I think it is equally appropriate to mention the possible sonic advantages to systems which employ rear center surround speakers.
Q |
| I disagree with Woodman, but here is another take.... | Sir Terrence the Terrible 1
Apr 30, 2003 2:31 PM | | Matt,
My approach is a little different than woodmans when it comes to this issue. Because this issue really has nothing to do with amount of software, or current support for the format. First, there is no such thing as 7.1. 7.1 means by
AES and SMPTE(these organizations set the technical standards for audio and movies) standards 7 discrete channels and a limited range LFE channel. That doesn't exist in the home. DD EX is a 5.1+1 meaning five discrete channels, lFE and a limited range matrixed channel. This is reproduced through seven speakers if you follow their standards, not seven discrete channels.
Now you must ask yourself some practical questions.
1. Do I have the wall space for seven speakers?
2. Is my wife going to allow me to have seven speakers on the walls?
3. Is my room wide? 15-16ft at least.
4. Is more than one person going to be watching at any given time?
5. Can I properly set up this system to make its value useful to me?
If your answer is yes to all, get the receiver. There may not be a alot of software NOW, but there was a time people were saying the same thing about Dts, DVD-A and SACD. Things change. The economy for the studios is not that friendly, however as it picks up, more studio will turn out more EX titles. Also, you would be surprised how many non encoded titles sound pretty good with EX engaged(doesn't work well for all non encoded titles though)
If you answer was no to all, or even some, then I would skip EX and get a higher quality 5.1 setup. In narrow rooms where you are the only one watching, and sitting exactly in between your surround speakers, you can get the EX effect without decoding anyway. That information just doesn't disappear.
EX but more so Dts ES discrete can sound pretty awesome when heard through a correctly setup system(Gladiator is a prime example) But if it cannot be properly set up, then it is a waste of money. I went for a EX matrix and ES discrete system, and have never been sorry I did.
Sir Terrence |
| But Terrence...... | Smokey
Apr 30, 2003 2:59 PM | | ...you are going by the assumption that DVD titles with 6.1 formats will take off and be widely available. But what happens if it keep dwindling for foreseeable future? Will matrixed 6th or 7th channel for 5.1 format be attractive enough to implement such a set up considering the expense of extra speaker and space...not to mention hardware? |
| I don't assume anything, but I am not shortsighted either... | Sir Terrence the Terrible 1
Apr 30, 2003 8:35 PM | | Smoke,
Dts ES discrete will not be as widely used as EX. It costs a studio nothing to transfer a EX soundtrack from a film print. Dts Es discrete does require an investment, something that the studio during these hard economic times don't want to spend. 6.1 soundtracks will probably be limited to Dreamworks, maybe Universal, Anchor Bay, and New Line titles. I do not see any other studio supporting the format. EX is support by ALL studios when created. When the economy turns around, expect more titles to be released in EX. Keep in mind, EX is starting to show up in even mid priced receivers. For some reason the film industry is ass backward in this regard. Hardware leads the software, and not the other way around. So as more EX receivers are sold, the software will follow. Dts is a prime example of that. Dts is now on radio, television, games, and so on.
For the few EX and ES titles I have, I very much enjoy them in their full 6.1, or 5.1+1 glory. It was worth the expense to me. If you are really a avid video fan, you want the best that you can get for the price. A few speakers and some taken up wall space doesn't matter if that is what you want. If you object to having all those speakers, and the expense that goes along with them, then there is no arguement here. Don't get it. However if you want the latest and greatest, then go for it. The future of EX and ES is not written in stone.
Keep this in mind, a movie will not have a EX track if it doesn't lend it self well to it.(talkies, love storys, and comedies).
I personally wouldn't go for EX anyway. I use the circle surround processor for my EX because it can be used on just about every movie out there. It doesn't operate on the same principle as EX, so it is not limited to only encoded sources. I have only found one movie that did not lend itself well to CS processing. It was a talkie that had almost no surround info at all!
Choice is wonderful. Limits are aweful!
Sir Terrence |
| I don't assume anything, but I am not shortsighted either... | matt123
Apr 30, 2003 10:14 PM | | Thanks for all replies guys :)
I initially had an eye on Denon 2803 which seems
to have MSRP $800. But looks like if I want to
go with just 5.1 setup, I might as well get a
receiver costing less.
Any suggestions on a receiver with
1. 5.1 output
2. Component switching with atleast 50MHz bandwidth
3. hopefully with input for future DVD-Audio/SACD player
Thanks,
Matt |
| Sir Terrence - What if the receiver has DTS-ES, but no DD-EX | Breezer88888
May 1, 2003 7:46 AM | | Hi Sir Terrence,
My question to you relates to a receiver choice. The Denon AVR3802 (and its twin the AVR1082) handles 7.1 channels with DTS-ES, but doesn't have DD-EX. I am putting together a 7.1 set-up. FYI, my answer to all 5 of your previous questions is YES, thankfully. I'm not prepared to cough up the extra dough for the next model up (3803), and probably shouldn't go down to Denon's 1803 just b/c its capable of DD-EX.
Or the whole DD-EX thing an automatic, so that if the receiver has DTS-ES, it can also process DD-EX encoded DVDs? Hate having to over-think this kind of stuff, so what do you think? By the way, thanks for contributing to AudioReview. Keep it up!!
Breezer |
| I am pretty sure if it can do DTS-ES it can do DD EX - nt | Clark Kent
May 1, 2003 8:34 AM | | |
| I am pretty sure if it can do DTS-ES it can do DD EX - nt | Breezer88888
May 1, 2003 6:47 PM | | Thanks Supe,
Sir T must have moved on to another topic. By the way, the AVR-1082 (AVR-3802's twin) has the advantage on power, processing and possibly price. The receiver is less than $300 more than the AVR-1803. Do you think its worth the extra 3 bills?
Breezer |
| I think so..... | Clark Kent
May 2, 2003 10:02 AM | | I am not sure what speakers you are running but more power is always useful. If you can swing it more is better ;o)
Supes
By the way, nice taste on the Denons. They make good stuff. I am waiting to hear how there new DVD-2900 (i think thats the model) is. |
| re: To 7 Channel or not | plextor guy
Apr 30, 2003 5:00 PM | | Unless you have a dedicated and large home theater anything over 5.1 is overkill imo. Using a good pair of dipole surrounds will fill your room with convincing surround sound. |
| re: To 7 Channel or not | krabby5
Apr 30, 2003 5:43 PM | | It may not be used very much, but most of the high end A/V receivers have 6.1 capability anyways...so if you get a decent receiver you will probably get 6.1 whether you like it or not...doesn't mean you will ever use it, though |
| If you can swing it | Clark Kent
May 1, 2003 6:40 AM | | you should do it! Just watch LOTR SE in DTS ES and you will understand why. I friggin love that thang ;o)
Supes |
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