|   Do any audio companies build their own stuff anymore? | grampi44
Nov 9, 2003 1:00 AM | | Have somebody else build it, and we'll slap our name on it. That seems to be everybody's moto these days. It seems they're all into this outsourcing thing. I can't remember the last time I saw an American audio company that still builds their own equipment, and now days, even the Japanese companies are doing it. Just because it says Sony, Pioneer, or Panasonic on it, don't assume it's built in Japan. More than likely, it's built in Korea or China.
I realize the audio industry is a business and every company has to stay competitive, but they need to draw the line somewhere and say enough is enough. Somewhere there's got to be a limit to how low they can allow the quality of their products sink to. Look at Sony for example. In 1986, I bought a new Sony CD player. When I replaced it a couple years ago with a DVD/CD player, it was still working fine. In 1999, I bought a new Sony STR-DE545 HT receiver, and it has already cashed in. When I took it to the repair shop, the guy who works there said all the companies have allowed the quality of their products to drop to get the prices lower. Lower prices is good, but not if it means lower quality. Where does this nonsense stop? |
| Grampi44, you make a good point; but here is another. | kelsci
Nov 9, 2003 2:54 AM | | As far as the case you mention with Japanese audio equipment mostly being built in other countries now, there are so many other companies farming out of this country manufacturing and even service oriented business to other countries for a cheaper bottom line particulaly for labor but savings in other expenses on the profit and loss statement.
The other point involves when a specific company manufactures an electronic component for another company perhaps only making some outside cosmetic changes. For example, suppose a certain model dvd player was manufactured by Panasonic, cosmetically altered, and sold to Mitsubishi. Suppose my experience with the specific Panasonic model IMO is a piece of crap and I return it ending up purchasing that Mits. model. I would be expecting to get a completely different product that might overall play better only to find it playing the same as that previous model I returned. My time would have been wasted. If Mit. had gone over the intended purchase of the Pansonic model and had their engineers check it out and found that some of their own changes should be made as needed making the unit perform better than the Pansonic, at least you would have a chance for some of that Pansonic made machine for Mits. to be a better buy. Fortunately, the industry does do this to a great degree at least where DVD players go perhaps buying their drive systems from one company while altering their video/audio performance of the player to their specifications if the company values its reputation. |
| Good point grampi... | joel27862
Nov 9, 2003 5:18 AM | | That's what is happening to most companies. Lower quality-Lower prices. I am a big Sony fan. I have lots of Sony stuff. But I think with Sony it's Lower Quality-Higher prices. The prices for Sony are very high. And the product you get isn't worth the hefty price tag. |
| Sony banks on their name | grampi44
Nov 9, 2003 8:57 AM | | I believe Sony is riding on the coattails of the way they USED to build their products. They can do this for a while, but sooner or later they're going to end up with the reputation the other cheapo companies have. Just like what happened to me. I mainly purchased my last Sony receiver because of the rep Sony had with me. Notice I said had. Screw me once, bad on you. Screw me twice, bad on me.
Maybe there's no way around today's mentality where every product is disposable these days. Our choice of buying something made of quality and will last a long time may have been taken away from us. |
| Sony banks on their name | joel27862
Nov 9, 2003 1:58 PM | | That's exactly what they're doing. People know that Sony was good, so they get fooled into thinking it is. And our choice of buying a good quality product. I believe that has been pretty much taken away as well. |
| Sony banks on their name | Invader3k
Nov 10, 2003 6:53 AM | | "Maybe there's no way around today's mentality where every product is disposable these days. Our choice of buying something made of quality and will last a long time may have been taken away from us."
Exactly. Personally I would much rather pay a little more for a product that is well built, and that I know will last. However, I think part of the problem isn't just the companies manufacturing the products. I think most consumers in America would rather pay the least amount possible for something, regardless of the quality they get. If it works just OK for a while and then breaks in a year, who cares? I'll just replace it with another cheap unit.
- Mason |
| The Death of Sony... | Worf101
Nov 9, 2003 9:28 PM | | I read a recent article on Sony on the Cnet.com (you can do a search there and find it). The gist was that Sony has fallen into the dumper due to pride. Sony felt they had such a lead in buyer loyalty they could ignore innovation and product improvement in a bid to try and corner the wifi and digital market in Japan. Recent trade shows see Sony reduced to riding on its laurels with no new product save dancing robots to show anyone.
They've had to layoff staff and have taking a beating from the other concerns in Japan as well as arch rival Samsung which they just signed a joint development pact with. That's like the Yankees going hat in hand to the Red Sox for a loan. That's how bad it is. I've found Sony receivers to be complicated, overpriced pieces of chite... now I know why. Don't say no one told ya.
Da Worfster |
| The Death of Sony... | joel27862
Nov 10, 2003 2:59 AM | | I have a Sony reciever. I found it very easy to use. Comparing it to a JVC. The JVC was very hard to figure out but...Turning the JVC up 3/5 was louder than the Sony up close to full. They are both rated 100 w/ch x 5. I think Sony went skimpy on the amp. Well skimpy on the product itself. Sony used to be really good, they had good prducts. That's what they were riding on to keep sales up. People are starting to realize that the Great Sony is just as good as a crap Durabrand from Wal-Mart. |
| We are to blame, Sony is following market trends | Sir Terrence the Terrible 1
Nov 10, 2003 10:49 AM | | Grampi,
We can sit around a blame Sony, Panasonic, Technic, Mitsubishi, and all of the asian manufactuer for low quality products. The problem is its our fault. Just look on this board posts that are labeled "what is the cheapest receiver for my room" or "how do I do hometheater cheaply".
If we didn't ask for this "cheap" stuff, we wouldn't get it. All these manufacturer are doing is following market trends. If the public didn't clammer for cheap products(and they do in droves), then the manufacturers wouldn't make them. In order to meet price points(as set by marketing information)they have to cut corners somewhere. If they built a tank of a case for a receivers, they must include cheap DAC's, non discrete output devices, low isolation between video and audio circuitry, and overrated but underpowered amps to meet the preset price point.
If they build what feels like a cheap lightweight casing, then they can put more emphasis on the sound quality by using better DAC, amps that are properly rated, and greater isolation between video and audio sources.
I said on this board some three to four years ago complaining about everyone asking for the cheapest everything, you ask for it, and you will be sorry you got it!!!!
The day we abandon our quest for hometheater on the cheap, is the day the manufactuers will abandon the propensity to produce cheap products. They will give the market what they want.
Sir Terrence |
| We are to blame, Sony is following market trends | joel27862
Nov 10, 2003 11:39 AM | | That's a very good point. Do you think Sony tried to overcome this by introducing their new ES line? They sell ES recievers for about 1200 I saw on for. They say it's auddiophile quality. Is this stuff just fancy looking junk. Or is it better than the other Sony products for the normal consumer? |
| We are to blame, Sony is following market trends | Sir Terrence the Terrible 1
Nov 10, 2003 2:24 PM | | Joel,
I do think that. It seems to me they are trying to create a two tier system for their products with the ES line. I say this is smart, unless it is proven that the ES line has no better components, sound, and specs than their budget line or products. I guess the easiest way to tell if this is just fancy junk is to pop the top of a ES receiver, and their budget line of receivers. If they use the same parts, DAC, and design principles, then yes you are correct, its just junk with a high price. If not, then I would say that Sony is very smart in meeting the demand of two segments and not just one to make the quick buck.
Sir Terrence |
| We are to blame, Sony is following market trends | grampi44
Nov 10, 2003 12:42 PM | | I agree with your statement to a certain extent. Consider this exaggerated example; Let's say the market trend was that the majority of consumers were asking for dirt cheap components that lasted no longer than a year because these people prefer having the most updated equipment rather than being concerned about buying something that will last a long time. I think many companies would follow the trend, but the reputable ones would not. The reputable companies are going to draw the line at taking a chance on gaining a reputation for building cheap products after they've worked so hard to achieve their good rep. Sony (and they're not the only ones) has approached the situation a little differently. Sony was (and may still be) a reputable company, however, they have chosen to follow the marketing trends, figuring their reputation will sell their products. They were right, but at what cost? How much longer can Sony sell the type of equipment they've been selling over the last few years before their reputation goes from good to bad? Then what? I guess they'd have to start all over again. |
| Sony could fix this. | joel27862
Nov 10, 2003 1:00 PM | | While Sony is still hanging on their good reputation, I think for the price that they sell most of the stuff for they could build it just like they use to with all that quality and not have to stretch the prices of their stuff. Sony could easily do this, and get a huge name for quality gear and come out on top. Why doesn't a company like Sony do that? It would be great. I am a big supporter of Sony. I really like the stuff. So far I haven't had any problems with my Sony gear. Haven't had any of it for too long but all the same. Why doesn't Sony try something like this? It would be so awsome. To see a Sony comeback. I like their stuff. I would think many other people do too. If Sony put a little more effort into quality I think their sales would skyrocket. |
| I am afraid this might not be Sony's mission | Sir Terrence the Terrible 1
Nov 10, 2003 5:09 PM | | Joel,
These days, I am afraid it boils down to two schools of thought. Either you make quality components that don't sell a kazzilion on the market and make shareholders not so happy, or go the route of the market, make you company(and shareholders millions) and perphaps in the long run damage your companies good name. Nobody thinks on the long term anymore. Many work on the premise of pre-obsolescense as a platform so as to keep the consumer purchasing product every so often. This is very good on the short term income stream to a certain extent. At least until the public shifts back to wanting quality products. Then they are going back to the manufacturers that turned out reputible products all along. Look at Marantz in the 70's and today. Look at Pioneer in the 70'-80's and today. Both of these two companies turned out good quality products back in those days. Today, they are know as midfi companies at best. Marantz is probably the best example of a company that followed market trends of the time(producing components a lower and lower price points that were cheaply made) and ended in bankrupcy in the process.
Sir Terrence |
| I am afraid this might not be Sony's mission | joel27862
Nov 10, 2003 7:18 PM | | That's true. I was looking at some old Pioneer stuff. Man that's awsome stuff. I don't know what happened to them or any company. But I guess that has to happen. |
| I don't think Cheap is the Right Word... | ThreeDHomer
Nov 11, 2003 3:02 PM | | I am a Novice...Emphasis on Novice, Home Theater Addict. I currently own an Onkyo 500 that is around a year and a half old. I have some Home Theater Direct speakers that I have bought for the last year or so. I bought a good ole Sony DVD player over three years ago, and it is going strong. (I think. I don't know what a bad dvd player does) Anyway, I spent around $1000 dollars on all this. I am too snobbish to buy an all in one system, but have a family and a horrible golf habit that takes up most of my cash. What I look for is Value. Sony is typically not on my Value list. I am in need of a new TV, and I really wouldn't even look at a Sony. I am high on the new Zenith HD ready sets with the receiver built in. Who knows when I will have the cash to get one though. I guess my point is that there are a lot of folks that go in deep, and buy really fine equipment, but still want to get the enjoyment out of it. To say they want cheap material is a little coarse.
Homer
P.S. I love my system. |
| re: Do any audio companies build their own stuff anymore? | Woochifer
Nov 10, 2003 10:08 PM | | Sony's had reliability issues for at least the past few years, and friends of mine who worked at AV stores have pretty much echoed a lot of the sentiments by the others about Sony going on the cheap and banking on their reputation. Some of their products are still very well made and reliable, but the consistency is nowhere near what it was before. You might wind up with a reliable product, or you might roll snake eyes and get something from an off-the-chart bad batch (at my friend's store, half of their early production Wega TVs failed within the first week). My wife and I bought one too many Sony products from these bad batches, so we've pretty much quit buying anything from them if we have options (the last thing we bought was a PS2). I heard that Sony has significantly ramped up its outsourcing in the meantime.
The thing about manufacturing outsourcing is that a LOT of companies do this, even higher end component manfacturers frequently outsource major components and/or final product assembly. It's a general trend in electronics. Some companies have specific expertise with manufacturing, and will basically build to spec, freeing an electronics company like Sony from having to assume the costs of maintaining their own manufacturing facilities. It doesn't necessarily mean a decline in quality, unless lots of corner get cut or other issues crop up. I believe that h/k had major problems with at least one of their outsource manufacturers, which contributed to very high failure rates among some of their receiver models. Also, Denon's shifted production of their entry and midlevel receivers around to different plants as they've gone through two ownership changes the last couple of years.
And as someone else noted, a lot of companies buy components from other companies or contract the manufacturing to another company. Denon's entry level DVD players use Panasonic transports and are made through outsourced plants to Denon's specs. Cambridge Audio and Arcam's high end CD players use Sony transports. And several high end speaker makers outsource their drivers to Vifa or Scanspeak.
The only receiver manufacturer I know of that does their own manufacturing is Yamaha. And it may not be coincidental that their reliability has been consistently good for over 30 years. But, they're a somewhat unique case because they design their own DSP processor chips and operate their own chip fabs, which they use to manufacture OEM chips for other companies. And even though they're vertically integrated, they still contract out to Panasonic to provide DVD transports.
The thing is that the buying public is demanding more and more features for less money. The electronics industry has been able to keep up, but the downside is that it's also given them more avenues to cut corners, which they have taken advantage of. My friends who sell AV equipment have pretty much bailed out of the industry because of what they see as the Walmartization or Costcoization of electronics. Consumers have begun equating value strictly in terms of price, disregarding other factors like reliability and performance. And when the market shifts like that, it's hard to sustain a quality focus when consumers look at electronics as disposable products. |
| re: Do any audio companies build their own stuff anymore? | joel27862
Nov 11, 2003 5:25 AM | | Electronics are not disposable things. I'd say 90% of people that go out to buy a dvd player or something will look at the cheapest one and without question--buy it. No one has money to be wasting. But buying a $150 dollar good dvd player rather than a $70 dollar junk dvd player isn't too much to ask. Wouldn't people rather pay a little extra to get something that might last a while? No. most people wouldn't. They just buy. And when it gives out. Buy another. As for that Walmartization and Costco. You'll never catch me dead buying electronics from there. What does Wal-Mart have? Durabrand, Venturer, Phillips..and Sanyo tv's(Which are stripped down models btw). There's too much junk circulating and it's pretty much because the average consumer could care less about the product. As ong as it's cheap |
| re: Do any audio companies build their own stuff anymore? | Woochifer
Nov 12, 2003 1:07 PM | | I don't regard electronics as disposable. I look for items with better build quality and/or performance because I intend to keep them long-term. However, that's no longer the dominant expectation in the market.
Friends of mine who've worked in audio/video sales for over a decade tell me that over the last five years in particular, most electronics items have gotten commodified and discounted to the point that there's little to no profit margin on those items anymore. And the quality has declined in the meantime. Consumers are always looking for both quality and low price, but the emphasis as of late has been more on the latter. This raises the perception that electronics items are disposable. If they break, it's more worthwhile to buy a whole new one than to fix something because the prices have gotten so low. The problem with this is that it basically eliminates the midlevel category for a lot of product types. |
| re: Do any audio companies build their own stuff anymore? | grampi44
Nov 11, 2003 8:14 AM | | I can't really blame these companies for following the trends. Afterall, they still are in business to make money and to do this they need to give the consumers what they want. Here's what does bother me. While the majority of consumers may want the most features they can get for the least amount of money, there are still those of us who don't mind spending the extra money to get quality. If I'm willing to spend the extra money on a certain brand's flagship model, I expect to get to be getting the unit with the best build quality. That doesn't always happen. In fact, in today's market, that may not happen at all. A lot of times you'll get more features and more power, but no better build quality. I've noticed quite a few flagship units on the shelves at the local repair shops lately. If I'm paying top dollar for these models, they should be built to last.
The other thing the manufacturers should be doing is letting the consumer know up front that certain models are built for the frugal shopper and may not last too long, or this model is more expensive because it has more features and power, or this unit is more expensive because it's built with high quality components and is made to last. This way, the consumer would know right away what they're getting. The cheap people would still buy the cheap stuff, but those of us who want quality would no longer have to guess about which units are going to give us that. |
| re: Do any audio companies build their own stuff anymore? | joel27862
Nov 11, 2003 12:11 PM | | That's exactly what they should do. Have value models and good quality models for the people who want the extra quality. That would be great. I wonder if Sony or any companies have a suggestion e-mail address? |
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