|   Toni Braxton (a review) | MasterCylinder
Apr 17, 2002 9:53 AM | | Review This. |
| Excellent review!!!! n/t | AD
Apr 17, 2002 10:49 AM | | |
| man, I am so sick of this. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 10:54 AM | | For better or worse, I gotta say this: one thing I thought about posting in the "hates" thread (maybe more accurately titled "pet peeves") is the constant disrespect of women artists on this board. It really bothers me. What could be your possible motivation for a post like this, other than arrested adolesence?
~Rae |
| I'll try this one. | Stone
Apr 17, 2002 11:07 AM | | By the tone of your post, I assume this isn't a joke so I'm going to respond to it in a serious manner. I generally don't get into debates on this board (I do enough debating and picking people's words apart in my job), but I have been known to post some pics like this and I guess I'm feeling defensive.
First, I haven't seen a general "constant" disrespect for women artists on this board. Even though the male artists get more discussion, there's been quite a bit of discussion of Lucinda, Cowboy Junkies, and Kasey Chambers, just to name a few. You and I have even had discussions on Juliana Hatfield (and probably others).
Second, I don't see it as disrespect at all. If someone posts her pic, I actually think it's a compliment to her that she looks good (unless there's some derogatory comment to go with it). I've never meant disrespect to that particular woman by posting a pic of her. Adolescence? Maybe. But I consider it to be in fun and what kind of reaction do you think she was trying to get with a pose like that?
Stone |
| clarification | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 11:30 AM | | Thanks for treating my post seriously.
I understand that Toni Braxton is marketed for sex appeal and has consciously cultivated that image. So I guess I didn't mean that MC was disrespecting <i>her</i>, but I do still find that kind of objectification offensive in general. Whether or not she approves it is not wholly relevant.
My use of the word "constant" may have been an exaggeration, but I don't think the statement was completely without merit. Posts like MC's are overt in their pigheaded objectification, but more subtle sexism shows up on the board very frequently. It seems like hardly a mention of a female solo artist or a band with a female vocalist goes by without somebody saying something like "the music's [fill in description], and/but she sure is easy on the eyes." There are remarkably few women artists that seem exempt from this treatment-- including Lucinda Williams. I agree that she gets plenty of musical admiration on this board, but she's still subject to qualifiers like <i>Miss</i> Williams or <i>the lovely</i> Lucinda. And maybe I'm being pessimistic, but I suspect that if Juliana Hatfield was less obscure and people knew what she looked like, we would've had similar comments in those threads too.
I didn't mean to put you on the defensive and I'm not trying to brand anyone a sexist (well, except MasterCylinder-- he's posted at least one picture in the past that I challenge you to defend as "respectful"). I believe that most of the posts that bother me aren't intended as malicious or disrespectful at all, even complimentary, as you said. But I still feel that it is disrespectful to judge a woman artist on anything but her music.
I'm having trouble articulating this... perhaps I shouldn't have opened this can of worms at all. I hope that I'm not the only one who feels this way, though.
~Rae |
| I understand your point, and agree with you somewhat... | Stone
Apr 17, 2002 11:57 AM | | However, I still disagree with some of what you said. And I didn't take the post personally, and I hope you don't take my comments personally either.
> It seems like hardly a mention of a female solo artist or a band with a female vocalist goes by without somebody saying something like "the music's [fill in description], and/but she sure is easy on the eyes."
What's wrong with this in a discussion? We're all people, we all have wants and desires. If that were <i>all</i> that was being discussed or if it were derogatory, I'd see a problem with it. But it's not all that's discussed, it's not derogatory IMO and I don't see a problem with it. How about if Audio Girl (hypothetically, of course, and I don't mean to imply she'd do this), said that a certain male artist was easy on the eyes or nice to look at in her discussion of his music? Would you be offended by that too?
> But I still feel that it is disrespectful to judge a woman artist on anything but her music.
If the post had been of Pamela Anderson (a non-music artist), then it would have been ok? Or you'd have a different objection to it (maybe because this is a music board and she is not a musical artist)? I don't think the post of the pic had anything to do with her musical merit one way or the other. It had to do with her looks and her being attractive. Sure, she's a musical artist, but she posed for that damn picture, knowing it would make guys drool.
Stone |
| Okay. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 12:08 PM | | > How about if [a female poster] said that a certain male artist was easy on the eyes or nice to look at in her discussion of his music? Would you be offended by that too?
Short answer: yes. Longer answer: email me if you want me to extrapolate.
> If the post had been of [a non-music artist], then it would have been ok?
Short answer: no. Substitute the word "work" for "music."
~Rae |
| Fair enough. | Stone
Apr 17, 2002 12:20 PM | | We don't need to start an email discussion of this (unless you really want to). Your initial post was directed specifically to posting of a picture (like the Toni Braxton picture) as disrespectful of women musical artists. I realize now your objection to it is actually broader than that and that's fine. We have differing opinions on the topic and I'm not sure further discussion is necessary (between you and me).
Stone |
| good points, but . . . . | Darius
Apr 17, 2002 11:40 AM | | I think the biggest example of disrespect for women on this board is actually genre disrespect. Rock and alt-country, from which your examples of respected women spring, are generally white male dominated genres. Dance Pop and R&B are more commonly practiced by women, black people and guys named Enrique. Now, of course, it's not wrong or prejudiced for a white male not to listen to these genres, but its hard to find any mention of any dance pop person on this board without it being treated like fluff or substanceless music, or at best a guilty pleasure that you mention you like and then apologize for. Basically, there is no 70s white rock band that's so crappy that it's not liked or defended by one or another poster on this board, but the only way for anyone in Toni Braxton's genre to get mentioned by anyone here (with a couple notable exceptions, like 3LockBox) is with a snicker, a blush, a sexy picture, or a putdown. So I think Rae makes a good point. It doesn't mean people do it intentionally or are bad people or "sexists" or whatever, but it's just something to think about.
Here is an actual review of Toni Braxton's first album, from AMG, and it got 4 1/2 stars:
Toni Braxton is both an elegant and earthy songstress, nicely balancing those seemingly divergent sentiments on her self-titled debut disc. Braxton's husky, enticing voice sounds hypnotic on "Breathe Again," dismayed on "Another Sad Love Song" and disillusioned on "Love Shoulda Brought You Home." But she's never out of control, indignant or so anguished and hurt that she fails to retain her dignity. It's a sign of how great the Babyface/L.A. Reid production team was that they didn't settle for a defining mood; they presented Braxton with enough diverse emotional settings to hold the interest of urban contemporary males and females. — Ron Wynn |
| You're right... | Stone
Apr 17, 2002 12:04 PM | | that dance pop isn't mentioned much on this board, except usually in the manners you described. I do think that's a problem - I listen to music to enjoy it. Who cares if it's done in 9/8 time or whether it's all done on a computer. If I like it, I like it. However, most of the people on this board just don't listen to that. I don't listen to it much, but I see no reason to bash it (unless it's in jest of course). You do enjoy it and that's great.
As an aside, I have a "bonus" track on my comp that is a dance pop tune by a female group from a 12" single I have. I decided to make it hidden because it doesn't fit really well with the other songs. I thought to myself "Is that really a guilty pleasure?" Then I thought "What the hell is a guilty pleasure?" If I like it, I like it, why would I be embarassed or feel "guilty" about that?
Stone |
| "that" in line 3 = dance pop (nt) | Stone
Apr 17, 2002 12:29 PM | | |
| man, I am so sick of this. | J
Apr 17, 2002 11:17 AM | | Not for nothing, Rae, but she posed, didn't she? I don't see a gun to her head, or anything. The implied thoughts aside, it's not the fault of people who don't listen to contemporary pop music that sex helps sell it. Yeah, it's crass to post it, but how much crassness should she bear for doing it in the first place? What about Madonna, who got the ball rolling? |
| man, I am so sick of this. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 11:38 AM | | J, see my comments to Stone above. While I don't quite like the "she was asking for it" implication of that defense, you're right that sex sells and no one physically coerced her to pose like that.
What about Madonna? I don't understand what you mean by that.
~Rae |
| man, I am so sick of this. | J
Apr 18, 2002 10:36 AM | | I brought up Madonna because 1) I believe she's acknowledged to be the artist who deserves much of the credit, blame, notoriety, or whatever, for incorporating a heavily sexual element into pop music to an extreme that hadn't previously been approached relative to how popular she became, & 2) there seem to be a good number of people who do not listen to much dance pop who do like Madonna, or at least profess to. I mean, I don't have any Toni Braxton CDs, or Janet Jackson, or much else in the genre, but I do have a Madonna hits CD (I don't like to use myself as an example, but...). I guess I was just sort of pointing out that it shouldn't be too surprising that some people are going to be kind of crass about pics like this one relative to the music when that sort of thing has been used to sell the stuff for quite some time now. And I don't mean girl groups with borderline suggestive photos aimed at teenagers, I mean fairly explicit stuff like the writhing on the stage Madonna did when she performed 'Like A Virgin' on that MTV awards show. Don't get me wrong, I don't really have a problem with it--but I take the posting of this photo with a grain of salt & try not to let it bother me. There's only musical snobbery there if I want to read into it, and it can be denied all day long & frankly I'm not interested in arguing the point. But since it's her career, do you really think that she would be too upset at the fact that more than 500 people have looked at this thread since yesterday? I'm sure her management would feel that's good publicity, which has to be part of why she posed for a pic like that in the first place. I'm not saying it's wrong to be miffed because someone's a wiseass who's taking a poke at music they probably don't listen to or even take seriously, just that I don't see the point in getting worked up over it. Objectification of women would die off a lot quicker if women took it upon themselves to stop posing for pictures like that, and since most of 'em don't seem to feel they're being objectified--at least according to the things they say when they're asked about it--it may not end anytime soon. They've got a right to do it; men have a right to leer; and anyone has a right to not take her music seriously. In all likelihood, unfortunately, it would seem that some people don't take the music seriously in at least some part due to photos like this one. |
| man, I am so sick of this. | Rae
Apr 18, 2002 11:29 AM | | Oh, see, I was fine with your whole post until you got to the part where you said "<font face="courier">objectification of women would die off a lot quicker if women took it upon themselves to stop posing for pictures like that.<font face="arial">" I don't agree with that, or at least not in the sense that I think you mean it. Do you want me to email you and explain why? It'd have nothing to do with music at all and I'd like to take this offline.
~Rae |
| Hit me | J
Apr 18, 2002 12:07 PM | | Don't get me wrong. In no sense am I blaming the victim here. But I think it's a matter of simple logic that there can be no objectification if there are none of these photos. Same as it's a matter of simple logic that there would be no objectification if men were not conditioned to think it's okay to objectify. There is such a thing as supply & demand. If one's intention is to curb the demand, surely it is incumbent upon them also to have an eye towards limiting the supply; and I cannot see making a moral judgment on one without acknowledging the other. The bottom line is that it's not likely that either will change. Human nature is an uglier thing than a lot of people would care to admit, but in no sense do I see the potential for a heckuva lot of change one way or another at any time in the future, near or otherwise. Sorry if that sounds cynical. |
| You beat me to it, J | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 11:40 AM | | Rae or anyone else doesn't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to pictures like this. Anyone watch MTV lately? Am I suppose to walk away from most of those videos thinking, "Wow, nice costume" ? Certainly, the post in itself doesn't do Braxton justice as a singer, and could be disrespectful to our female posters, but Jar didn't take the photo. |
| Jar didn't post the photo, either. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 11:46 AM | | It was MasterCylinder.
Sex sells, but you don't have to buy it! You can come away from watching those videos offended by the exploitation they present! And why exactly would posting this photo be any more offensive to our female posters than our male posters?
~Rae |
| Yep, Mastercylinder. My bad. | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 11:49 AM | | Such an aluring, suggestive pose. Do you listen to Toni Braxton? |
| I have. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 11:51 AM | | I own the album that Darius mentions, but you're right, it's not necessarily my music of choice. Does that matter? |
| Does her posing in this picture change your opinion of her? | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 12:06 PM | | I mean, I was slightly taken aback by the Janet Jackson cover (All For You), considering it was a departure from her old image. But I reallize that the album was as much about sexual expression as it was about dancing. I must admit that I'm not so put out by the cover that I won't look at it. |
| Tough question. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 12:21 PM | | It doesn't change my opinion of her music, no. That music sounds the same as it did before I saw that picture. By the same token, my feeling that MasterCylinder is prone to acting like an ass doesn't mean that I wouldn't enjoy his Wilson-Gann Project music (which I've never heard). Hopefully, someone's personality shouldn't have any bearing on their music (unless the thrust of their music is their message-- again, tough question). That said, yeah, I'm a little disappointed that she would choose to represent herself that way. She has a perfect right to do it if she wants to, but I just can't necessarily get with it.
~Rae |
| Kansas (a review) | Darius
Apr 17, 2002 11:11 AM | | And this is the good looking one |
| RRRR!!!! Me hardies!!! Video killed the radio star | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 11:46 AM | | Good thing that 'music' was the only relevant thing when his band was prominant; not dancing, looks and image. |
| I wasn't even <i>born</i> when Kansas was prominant. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 11:50 AM | | But if I had been, I would like to think that someone saying "Donna Summer is hot" over their CB radio would have sounded just as sophomoric to me as this post does.
~Rae |
| I remember them on Top 40 radio | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 11:59 AM | | And where I grew up, (Tennessee) no one would say Donna Summer was hot on their CB radio in the '70s, except me or my brother. Yes the post is sophmoric. More proof that this board could be a little more musically diverse than it is. But we shouldn't assign motive to the posting, I don't think Mastercylinder was trying to dis an entire genre. |
| You misunderstand me. | Rae
Apr 17, 2002 12:15 PM | | I don't mean to imply that MasterCylinder was trying to illicit any other reaction than "huh, huh, sweet." I feel that he's being disrespectful to women, consciously or unconsciously. Darius pointed out that he's also being dismissive of a musical genre, consciously or unconsciously. Whether he was trying to or not, he still offended me.
~Rae |
| Artists who wish to be taken seriously | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 12:21 PM | | put themselves in a different catergory when they sell cheesecake instead of music. Take Lisa Loeb for example. She's an adorable girl, no matter how nerdy she tries to make herself look. But I appreciate why she does it; she wants her music to get noticed first, not her looks.
Its like that now for guys as well. Not all genre of music are affected, but pop and Country music are full of pretty boys, who are long on looks and short on talent. Waylan Jennings said, "Good thing I'm not trying to make a name for myself in todays music. I know a lot of country singers that woulda never been heard of if they had to be good-lookin to get a contract. They just seem to pass the black hat from one 20 year old to the next." |
| Lisa Loeb is 31. Hardly a "girl" | Darius
Apr 17, 2002 12:29 PM | | I normally wouldn't do this, and I know this is partly a cheap shot, but since the subject is disrespect for women I couldn't help but bring this up. Just imagine calling any 31-year-old male singer/songwriter a "boy". Now I know this was completely unintentional, but it doesn't make it correct. Ideally we should try to stop calling grown women girls. And since were at it, a "young girl" is someone who is 4, not someone who is 20. (I hear young women very often get called young girls.) |
| (oops, my mistake: she's 34) n/t | Darius
Apr 17, 2002 12:34 PM | | |
| My age showing, my bad. | 3-LockBox
Apr 17, 2002 1:33 PM | | Certainly, no one who is 34 or 20 is a boy or a girl. |
| Darius, you've had too many shots of 150 proof PC | WStan
Apr 17, 2002 1:50 PM | | Darius, let it rest. Forty or fifty years ago, we casually referred to males and females of age 15 to 85 as "guys and gals." Today, we still refer to groups of males from teenage years on up as "guys" but the term "gals" is no longer currently in vogue or in use by anyone who doesn't have first-hand accounts from the 50's. The term "girls" has replaced "gals" in that exact same capacity - as a casual, informal way of referring to one or more females. It's not disrespectful of anyone, it's simply part of our present day vernacular.
I've gotten into many arguments with people who were more interested in condemning men than in gender equality over the use of the term "girls." I've had several arguments with females who criticized me for referring to the high school female athletes on "the Girls' Varsity Basketball Team" as "girls" and wanted me to call these 14 and 16 year olds "women" instead. Talk about ridiculous.
Sorry, but after your several posts on the rap threads in the past week casually dismissing my criticisms about how chauvinistically mainstream rap treats women, I don't think you have any standing to raise this issue. If the cause of women in our society is what you are truly advocating, you would accomplish far more protesting the treatment of women in rap music than complaining about issues of semantics here. |
| PC? You've been listening to too much talk radio. | Darius
Apr 17, 2002 2:28 PM | | You're the one that's making too big of a deal about this. We're in the middle of a thread the subject of which has turned to disrespect of women on this board. The thread has been civilized, nuanced, and probably productive. In that context it was sort of funny that 3-Lock Box accidentally called Lisa Loeb a "girl", when she's 34 years old. I mentioned this as an example of unintentionally incorrect usage (i.e., she is an adult). 3-Lock Box took it in the spirit it was intended -- i.e., I wasn't joking, but I also wasn't accusing him of anything too bad and it's not a big deal. Calling grown women girls is no longer considered appropriate, even though it used to me -- it's now considered rude. So I mentioned this.
But now you start going into this thing about P.C. Why the big reaction? Are you saying it's somehow wrong that "girl" is no longer considered an appropriate way to refer to grown women, but is rather considered sexist usage? What does it have to do with me if you've experienced people who have gone too far in the other direction? That's an interesting story, though, about the girls basketball team; I agree with you that those people sound annoying, but what does that have to do with me? You're not saying that the Lisa Loeb example is a controversial case, are you?
I'm happy to get into a discussion about sexism in rap lyrics with someone who doesn't disrespect and stereotype the entire genre; with a rap and hip hop fan like Rae, for example. That would be a serious, worthwhile discussion. You seem to care a lot about the issue in rap music, but you don't even listen to rap music. Physician, heal thyself. Heck, Rush frickin Limbaugh even criticizes sexism in rap music; what about sexism in your own workplace or in your own community? This is one of my communities; 3-LockBox is my friend; and I think this is a perfectly appropriate context to make the observation that I did.
As for your post to me below regarding rap and race, you're thinking my criticisms along this line are stronger than they actually are intended to be. You must understand, I don't think UnleasHell or you are bad guys. When I say race is intertwined in white people's feelings about rap, I'm not saying anything that strong, because I think race issues are tied up in everything practically. In fact I think that race is the most important unspoken issue in American politics and has been for many many years (crime issues, zoning issues, welfare issues, taxes, the whole bit). You gotta understand, this is a special interest of mine. See, you're a normal conservative well-adjusted kinda guy; when you hear someone insert the race issue into a dialogue, you think that's extreme. For me, it's basic and not a big deal. So when I say that race issues are tied up in your thinking or UnleasHell's thinking on a particular issue, I don't mean that as some damning or strong accusation. I don't mean that it makes your comments on rap or hip hop culture per se wrong or invalid; and I don't think it means you have bad intentions or are unqualified to express any opinion on the subject. |
| PC? You've been listening to too much talk radio. | WStan
Apr 18, 2002 9:40 AM | | For at least the past 20-30 years, people have been using the terms "girl" and "girls" instead of "gal" and "gals." There is a precise, feminine equivalent of the colloquial term "guy" - it is "girl." For the past dozen or so years, though, a certain group of people, generally those who either hide a degree of resentment against males under the title "feminist" or who have a somewhat obsessive desire to be viewed by others as "correct," have decided that the word "girl" does not actually have multiple meanings and instead may only be used to refer to a female child. This group of people has decided that the intent meant by most people - merely to refer to a female or group of females in a casual, non-stuffy, non specific fashion - was not actually their intent and their real intent was to refer to females in a demeaning fashion. That makes little sense to me. If the term "gal" returned to popular usage or another term free from any potential negative interpretation replaced it, I would agree that using one of those terms, under those circumstances, would be preferable. However, at the present time, I see no viable alternative term and no valid reason to stop using that word in that fashion. People can put demeaning, sarcastic inflections and intended meanings on any term you can imagine that describes other people. Should we stop using the terms "hero" or "philanthropist" if we hear some loutish individual using those words in a caustic fashion to refer negatively to someone?
Darius, you make me laugh with your assumptions about me. You clearly are the sort of person who does attempt to categorize people (perhaps stereotype them, if you prefer) in a broad fashion based on limited information rather than just deal with them one on one as individuals. The fact that you guessed so wrong about me shows the dangers and problems in stereotyping. I am not a conservative, I hate Rush Limbaugh and the only talk radio I listen to is ESPN Radio. If my dad (who does fit your characterizations) heard you describe me in that fashion, he would be roaring with laughter; three of our five biggest arguments have involved me condemning him for listening to and accepting at face value most of Limbaugh's spewage. I've voted in probably every election in the past decade and voted for only one GOP candidate - an experienced, fair person running for sheriff who had the near unanimous backing of both the sheriff's department and a politically moderate DA's office. An appreciation for morality is hardly the exclusive province of conservatives and the religious right, and the fact that I want to see people treating each other properly does not put me on the far right side of the political spectrum. I could spend hours discussing politics with you, but will try to redirect the focus here back to a music direction.
Your refusal to discuss the vulgar lyrical content of much of mainstream rap music with a non-rap fan is a cop-out, plain and simple. That's the same as a large industrial manufacturer declaring that only other industrial companies should be allowed to participate in formulating regulations controlling pollution or a religious leader declaring that non-religous people should not be allowed any input on a particular religion's use of animals and instruments of torture in its ceremonies. What secret appreciation am I, as someone who doesn't like rap, missing from a rap song whose lyrics state "gotta go bang da ho?" What important messages are you, as a rap fan, receiving from such "powerful popular culture" that are going over the heads of ignorant schmucks like me? Please explain why it is acceptable in your mind for so many rap artists to treat women in their songs as, at best, second-class citizens fit solely for use as casual sex toys, but it is intolerable and insulting to refer colloquially to a woman as a "girl." I really want to hear you try to come up with some sort of explanation.
Finally, I |
| PC? Part 2 | WStan
Apr 18, 2002 9:43 AM | | Finally, I fail to understand why you continue to bring up race and racism in these discussions. The key to what I think you hope to achieve is for people to consider each other as fellow people without regard to the identities of their ancestors and attempt to erase distinctions between them. When you continue to bring up racial differences in a conversation where race was not a focus of the discussion, you are creating an "us versus them" situation rather than an "all of us together" situation. My hopes and goals for our society are to bring people together, not drive wedges between them. As broad as that philosophy may be, isn't it better than to try to focus on the differences between people that may or may not be arguably attributable to their membership in one group or another? |
| PC? Part 2 | Darius
Apr 18, 2002 10:38 AM | | I regret that my post seemed to imply that you actually listen to Rush Limbaugh. It was not my intention, but rather an accidental coincidence of my subject heading, which was just a non-serious cheap shot based on your use of the term "PC", and my mention of Rush Limbaugh later in the post. You don't sound like someone who listens to Rush Limbaugh; I was just using him as an extreme example -- saying, in effect, it's easy to criticize rap music for sexism, even Rush Limbaugh does that, and he's no friend to women's rights (but he hates rappers more than he hates women, I assume :-)). Also, when I used the term "conservative" with respect to you, I didn't mean to imply "political conservative who votes Republican"; I just meant conservative in the larger sense (you know, regular guy-type views, etc.). I certainly have no way of knowing from what you said whether your a Republican or a Democrat or whatever, my Mom and Dad both have the same views as yours on rap music, and one of them is Republican and one is Democrat, one a political conservative and one a political liberal. Whatever. Okay, we got that out of the way; my apologies for the confusion.
I just think I have the better of the argument on whether "girl" is an appropriate term to use for grown women. "Boy" and "Son" were used as informal terms for grown black men until recent years; do you think "Boy" and "Son" are okay? I maintain that "girl" carries the same baggage, and has its roots in similar assumptions. I don't think it's a huge deal -- inaccurate phraseology is not a major oprressor of women in our society; I'll certainly agree with you there. As with the race issue, sexism is not the real problem, power inequality is (i.e., significantly lower average income for women, paucity of women political leaders and CEO's, and a whole bunch of other stuff I suppose, before impolite language comes in). But since we were on the subject, I thought it wasn't a bad time to say that I thought "girl" was the wrong term. It just is. I understand what you're saying. I don't think your view on this is off the charts -- except in your obnoxious and silly characterization of people who feel strongly about this -- I just don't agree with you.
As for race, the only reason I brought it up below is because I think it's important to analyze why rap music raises such strong negative passions in white folks above a certain age. Neither you or UnleasHell really listen to rap, but instead of ignoring a post on it you both felt the need to make bold negative statements. UnleasHell said "all rap is useless. crap." You started going actually into a mocking fake rap about "gats" and "hos" complete with your own version of black urban slang. I think irrational resentments and misunderstandings, albeit unconscious ones, have a part in that, that's the only reason I raised it. We're not going to agree on that, which is perfectly fine. Maybe I shouldn't have even brought it up but it's my view.
Race is important and shouldn't be ignored; that just allows the significant racial power inequality that still exists in this country -- just aggregate any social statistic by race and this will be seen -- to continue unquestioned. People should know what the percentage of black people in this country that live in poverty is, as opposed to white people, for example. This does not keep people apart, but rather is an important statistic for a society that hopes one day to erradicate this differential. Similarly, I think it's important to see how race feelings and race fears influence the national dialogue in order to move towards a more rational discussion of social issues. For example, Atlanta has been willing for many years to put up with some of the worst traffic and smog in the entire country rather than put into place a commuter mass transit system from the suburbs to the city. Every time it was proposed, it would be voted down among a campaign that asks |
| reply, part II | Darius
Apr 18, 2002 10:39 AM | | Every time it was proposed, it would be voted down among a campaign that asks, "Do we want to bring the crime of the city into our suburbs?" Race is not mentioned, but the more people that aren't afraid to call this for what it is, the more likely that rationality can come to this debate and this commuter problem can be solved. So, I'm not sure it was a good idea to bring up race in the rap discussion; maybe it wasn't because it can't help but be too personal. But that's why I did it. I apologize if it offended you, but we're probably not going to agree on this.
As to whether I could have a discussion about sexism in rap with you. First we need to have our discussion about rap in general -- as, regardless of your distorted perception, sexist and violent lyrics are not as big a percentage of rap is you think they are. I promised a post defending and celebrating rap and I intend to deliver one. But it's most likely going to be this weekend when I have more time. |
| Boy oh boy, I guess I shoulda used 'bitch' instead; ) nt | 3-LockBox
Apr 18, 2002 11:30 AM | | |
| Nice :-) (nt) | Darius
Apr 18, 2002 11:34 AM | | |
| You Go Girl! (nt) | maf
Apr 19, 2002 5:17 AM | | nt |
| Lisa Loeb | WStan
Apr 17, 2002 1:32 PM | | Loeb is just as fashion conscious as anyone else - those glasses are her image, the same as Elvis Costello's glasses were his. She wears them specifically to get noticed. While I'm sure she would prefer to be known predominantly for her music, I equally sure that she is smart enough to know the importance of first impressions and deliberately chose that image to help people remember who she is. In the broad female folksy-pop-rock genre, there are a lot artists who play relatively similar stuff, so it's not at all a bad idea to give people something memorable. |
| hell, the glasses were the cutest part! | stupidestboy
Apr 17, 2002 1:41 PM | | do you eat sleep breathe anymore
do you count sheep anymore? |
| re: Toni Braxton (a review) | nobody
Apr 17, 2002 1:28 PM | | Damn, I was just pissed she wasn't naked.
Oh yeah, I do agree that she can sing too. |
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