|   Johnny...about subwoofers | estan
Apr 3, 2001 7:12 PM | | Hey man...I havn't had time to get back to you about the subs but let me try and explain some things.
First ...good bass requires awesome amounts of power and a front end..cd or vinyl that is capable of giving a clean bottom end. Very often it is better to give up the last octave or so and go for a really clean mid and upper bass. If I was you and I assume you are working on a limited budget I would skip the sub entirely for the time being and concentrate on some real quality amplification and perhaps a better cd player. Since we are on a vintage forum and I believe that this is where you will get the best deals on a receiver or integrated amp or even better a separate amp, preamp and tuner. As long as you are concentrating on a music system and not going for home theater I think you should start looking for some gear with a good clean minimum of 100 watts/channel at 8 ohms. Some brands to look at are Pioneer, Sansui, Onkyo, NAD, Rotel and Kenwood. These must be from the right era as the newer stuff is not comparable except maybe from Rotel who is building excellent equipment today. The other folks on this forum are much more knowledgeable than I am about most of this gear so I would ask them for suggestions. It is usually better to stay with very simple but well designed equipment than to spend a lot of money on all the extra flash.
As for CD players you will have to stay fairly current to get the best sound. I really love the AH! Njoe Tjoeb 4000, some of the Marantz units from a few years ago, the Rotels, Adcoms, and the Rega's and the new Cambridge. The AH! is exceptional for the money but any of this discussion does not belong here on a vintage forum....
Again,
Have fun....S |
| re: About subwoofers | estan
Apr 4, 2001 6:56 AM | | duh....i dunno.
maybe it puts ac to the cd...
try double spacing
the paragraphs...
search "vintage Onkyo" on ebay and watchout for DugMon.. :~0
what is the amp...i forgot,
Stan |
| Actually, I was going to give him advice, not snipe him | Dougman
Apr 4, 2001 8:53 PM | | I was going to suggest that on Ubid, you could pick up either a Nakamichi MB-8, MB-10 or a Denon DCM370 CD changer for around $200 or less. I'm quite happy with the Nak MB-8 that I picked up there for $174 + shipping.
Also, as far as Kenwood, Pioneer, and Sansui, the golden era for gear from those companies is the mid 1970's to the mid 1980s. A quality integrated amp from those companies in that era will set you back < $100 in the 50-80 Watt range on eBay, and less than $200 if you bump it up to 100-150 Watts a side. FYI, those ratings are MUCH more conservative than today's gear - especially in the ability to handle peak transients above the RMS wattage levels. Some great models to look for:
Kenwood: KA-6100, KA-7100, KA-8100, KA-9100, KA-601, KA-701, KA-801
KA-7300, KA-8300, KA-9300
Pioneer: SA-8500, SA-9500, SA-8500-II, SA-9500-II, A-7, A-8, A-9
A-60, A-70, A-80, A-90, SA-7100, SA-8100, SA-9100
Sansui: AU-5500, AU-7700, AU-9900, AU-7070, AU-9090, AU417, AU517,
AU717
Here's some active auction examples of what you might find available:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1226433450
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1226104636
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1226261835
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1226434944
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1226997030
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1226592971
Also, you can by VERY nice analog tuners from these same vendors for well under $50. Decent digital tuners are even cheaper, but I MUCH prefer the analog ones. |
| Actually, I was going to give him advice, not snipe him | estan
Apr 4, 2001 9:28 PM | | Yeah...let's help John get setup. With all the enthusiasm he has shown and the fun he is having he deserves a good helping hand. That was a great post DugMon...very helpful to me when I come after your sniping butt. BTW...you just missed a Mac 110 preamp/tuner...a beauty. I posted a listing (that I am watching) for a very nice Onkyo power amp on the bay which I think will be great for John #1226924763. It is a very conservative 80wpc into 8 ohms...but it also has a beefy power supply.
I think he's got 15" woofs on the CV's (from what he said) so a sub will be a very difficult match at the moment and probably not worth the effort. I think he is probably very under power supplied with the receiver he is using and has no control over the woofs. Power is the answer here...
Very few cheapo CD players can really open up the layering in the bass but I am getting amazing results with the AH! 4000.
The Rotels are pretty good also but I am thinking a Marantz 17 LE might be just the ticket for under $200. Rega's are great but a bit pricy even used. The AH! has a tube analog section and is a no brainer for anybody willing to spend up to $1500. It is cheap at $579.... www.upscaleaudio.com
Stan |
| I haven't missed a thing | Dougman
Apr 5, 2001 1:46 AM | | I have the Pre-amp I want (a Kenwood Audio Purist C-2) to acompany my Mac Amp. And I have more tuners than I know what to do with (And I have YET to pay more than $25 plus shipping for any of them, save for the Kenwood KT 7500 that I've owned for 20 years. I have actually decided that I like some of my systems to have BOTH an analog and a digital tuner, and since they each cost me $20 or so, what the heck. That way, when I really care about tuning stations that have any kind of issues, I use a good old analog tuner, or, for any serious listening. If they are strong, clean signals, I can use a digital tuner with easy pre-set stations. I use a digital tuner as part of my alarm clock setup, so I can hit the pre-set stations when I'm still half asleep. That's really the only use I have for them.
BTW, You WON'T catch me when I'm sniping. Only after I have successfully sniped. |
| I haven't missed a thing | estan
Apr 5, 2001 8:21 AM | | what do you think of that Onkyo power amp for John? |
| It's a good choice | Dougman
Apr 5, 2001 10:06 AM | | I expect that it will close in the $150 - $200 range, and then he'll still need a Pre-Amp (figure another $75-100 for that, so for around $300 he could get some nice separates)
There's also another Marantz 15 Amp that should go for around the same range, but maybe YOU want it. It has a front panel:
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1227794787 |
| It's a good choice | estan
Apr 5, 2001 8:16 PM | | Thanks Doug...
I may take a shot at it if is okay with you.
Stan |
| I'm done buying Amps. I just got ANOTHER McIntosh | Dougman
Apr 5, 2001 9:34 PM | | I couldn't pass it up: $350 for a McIntosh MC2100. So now I'll have one for each of my main systems. Look out if you try to beat me out for a clean, but inexpensive pre-Amp, though! |
| I'm done buying Amps. I just got ANOTHER McIntosh | estan
Apr 5, 2001 10:11 PM | | you can have my C-22 for $2500...it's a honey. OOPS! I really don't want to sell it...
I will never do it the injustice of an auction for any money.
You really should get a tube preamp if you've got the speakers and the acoustics for it.....soooo sweet if you've got the right one. |
| I'm done buying Amps. I just got ANOTHER McIntosh | estan
Apr 5, 2001 10:23 PM | | You are doing great on a couple of great amps...if you've got some old Cat Stevens vinyl check it out with those 2100's. A friend of mine was producing an album for Genevieve Waite who was then married to John Phillips. We put a big Mac SS power amp with a Revox preamp and an A700 deck...a pair of Rectilinear 3a's and a Thorens TD124 in his home so he could listen to the masters. I brought Teaser over to test it out and it just blew me away. Bass punch that was much better than the Crowns in the studio...JBL 4310's over the board.
Love those big Macs. Can you bridge them?
Stan |
| I'm done buying Amps. I just got ANOTHER McIntosh | Dougman
Apr 6, 2001 12:16 AM | | They are both bridgeable, but I'll be using them in different systems. (actually, in different houses). And I won't need more than 100 W a channel in any system that I'm using them in, anyways.
I actually love the Kenwood Audio Purist pre-amps, and they are VERY cheap. I'm not big on mixing tubes and solid state. I think if you want to go tube, you should go tube all the way. If not, there are other well made solid state Pre-amps that sound pretty smooth. I can pick up a McIntosh C26 for $400 from the same guy I just bought the MC2100 from, but I probably will go with a Kenwood C-1 or, if I can find one, a Apt Holman model 1.
As far as Cat Stevens is concerned, Much as I loved the guy's music 20-25 years ago, I won't listen to his music on principle nowadays, now that he supports terrorists like Osama Bin-Laden, to the point of funding them. |
| I'm done buying Amps. For now. | estan
Apr 6, 2001 4:29 AM | | Sorry John...that's a drag.
I am kind of in the same boat as my Internet startup company just had to close in the beginning of this year and I had to let 90 people go all because of this volatile financial market and all of the investment money just disappearing. So I have also been unemployed since December. But you can still have fun until you are flush again. Look what you were able to do with 20 some bucks.
Stan |
| Heck, for all I know, I might be next | Dougman
Apr 6, 2001 4:42 PM | | Our stock went from 130 to 7 in the past year. We just had a layoff, which pretty much spared my division, but if we don't turn around our products in the next 6 months, who knows.
Fortunately for me, I sold all of my vested stock during our runup, and I averaged 90 a share, so if I DID get hit, I actually could go several YEARS before I HAD to work. But still, it's pretty scary what's happened in all of these internet-driven businesses. My company's biggest customers were Cisco and Nortel, and they are both not ordering ANY electronics for the next 6 months since their own customers stopped buying from them. One reason that I started looking at all of this vintage gear is that I was shocked at some of the quality stuff that was coming available at distress prices. |
| It's startup time again... | estan
Apr 6, 2001 5:39 PM | | Yeah...and to think 6 months ago my company was listed in Forbes and Fortune as "best of the Web". Unfortunately as a founder my stock was restricted so no mega yacht this year. but, the good news is I just closed a deal today for a new business in a fast growing market with much less downside risk. Also no fancy Venture Capital funding from a bunch of Harvard MBA's whose only talent is to make great spreadsheets out of a pile of sh*t...their whole deal was spend, spend, spend because there was always more where that came from. I'm afraid it's going to get a lot worse before it gets better. You will notice how much high end gear is up for grabs these days. I don't think the prices will drop in the used market but I am sure there will be a lot less people buying the new stuff.
Anyway it will be fun to build this new company and I think I will bring my Marantz 15 there to be a symbol of stability or for some extra heat next winter.
Regards...Stan |
| About those MBAs.... | Dougman
Apr 7, 2001 2:07 AM | | I have one. Actually, mine's from University of Chicago. I spent about 15 years skeptical that I had EVER learned anything of value there other than how to BS other people with a stack of numbers that could choke a horse. But that was before last year. My MBA actually grounded me in an understanding of exactly what was going on as it was happenning, and gave me a complete ability to recognize not only the shell game that all of these internet incubators with MBAs at the helm were playing on the market, I was able to pretty accurately predict WHEN the sh!t would hit the fan. Last February and March, the already absurdly over-valued internet stocks (including my own company's) started to actually rise faster, going up 3-5% PER DAY, for about a 2-3 week stretch, and the BS quotient of the hype just started to fly at a dizzying pace. Suddenly, we had several financial gurus coming out with white papers on WHY traditional models for valuation were no longer relevant, and that profitability was a stodgy concept that would hold back the obsolete OLD companies from the NEW high flyers who were obviously already taking over the world. About that time, Amazon.com, who has never, in their entire existence, earned a single, solitary dollar of profit, became the second highest valued retailer in the world, after WalMart. That was my red flag. I started bailing my stock holdings with both fists, selling EVERYTING I had between December of 1999 and March of 2000. So, MBA FINALLY paid for itself. But, at NO POINT, was I EVER confused enough to think that the skills they taught me in B-school were useful in launching a sustainable, growing business, that would outlive it's founders. |
| Kenwoods | estan
Apr 6, 2001 4:22 AM | | I once had a Kenwood L07T tuner...is that the series you are talking about? I also had a Kenwood turntable from that series. A very heavy DD unit with a synthetic marble base. Used a Lustre tonearm with a nude EMT cartridge. Not bad stuff.
I agree about Cat Stevens except I don't think his funding comes close to the "real money" that is funding those sh*theads. I really was talking about what amounted to an exceptional recording...you see he himself was a very knowledgable audiophile and a perfectionist about his sound.
Now that I remember the big Mac amp I used in that system was the 2300. To be very honest I was never really a big Mac fan until I started using their vintage tube stuff. For the most part their stuff had too much of a sonic signature that bespoke power but lacked finesse. A bit like comparing a Harley to a Ducati. I went down the path of Levinson (ML-1) and a Krell KSA -100 with a pair of Apogee Divas until I decided to simplify my life because I was traveling so much that I wa barely able to use my system more than a few days a year. Now that I have some free time I am having a lot of fun with the tube gear and and messing around with speaker design and trying to get some decent sound from my large CD collection that I could never get any real pleasure from until recently...
best...
Stan |
| Fletcher Munson Ducati's | estan
Apr 6, 2001 1:59 PM | | Did you ever notice how a Ducati's bass response gets better as it gets louder. I think we need a discussion on the doppler effect of running around your room while listening to the sound of a Harley on the left and a Ducati on the right playing a good ole game of chicken.
BTW I want a yellow one...not a Harley |
| Fletcher Munson Ducati's | estan
Apr 6, 2001 2:30 PM | | a yellow SS900 and some time off in the south of France... |
| Fletcher Munson Ducati's | estan
Apr 6, 2001 2:35 PM | | The 748 is totally cool but I just checked out the S4...that'll do it!!! |
| Fletcher Munson Ducati's | estan
Apr 6, 2001 4:53 PM | | The 748 is totally cool but I just checked out the S4...that'll do it!!! |
| Bass at low volume? Fletcher -Munsen curve at work here. | Markw*
Apr 6, 2001 11:02 AM | | Johnny, for sound to appear to be lacking bass at low volumes is normal. That's a function of our hearing, not the equipment.
This was discovered many years ago by, I believe, a pair of guys who developed the Fletcher-Munsen curve, which diagrams our ears lack of sensitivity to low frequencies at low volumes.
Basically what they say is that you have to boost the bass (and to some degree, the highs as well) at low volumes to hear it well.
Ever notice how one trumpet carries throughout the symphony hall while several kettle drums are sort of laid back? That's our hearing responding to frequencies it likes best (midranges).
Alllso, ever notice that mostalarms emit a fairly loud, piercing sound? That's aimed to get thru the noise and hit us right where we hear best!
And. your relief may actually lie in vintage gear. Many pieces included a "loudness" button which (at least) raised the bass response a few db at low volumes to compensate for our hearing. |
| Bass reinforcement from room boundaries. | estan
Apr 6, 2001 2:27 PM | | John ...here is the simple explanation. Imagine hanging a speaker dead center on one wall equally distant from the floor and ceiling and also equally distant from the side walls. We will call this BASSx1. Now take that same speaker and move it straight up to the ceiling or straight down to the floor. Call this BASSx2. Now take that speaker and move it into a corner...this will be BASSx4. So we are actually getting 4x the bass amplitude in a corner that at BASSx1. That should give you a rough and simple idea of the effects of the boundary walls on the bass output. Most speakers are designed to be used away from these boundaries...exept of course for corner loaded designs such as the Klipshorns that use the room corners to tune the bass response of the speaker. This is pretty old sh*t and as you can see from your own experiments that wall reflections can be more harmful than the extra bass they produce. |
| Bass reinforcement from room boundaries. | estan
Apr 6, 2001 6:03 PM | | John...
I havn't been keeping up with bikes for a while and I have to be careful not to mention them around my wife or she'll flip out on me. I've got enough of a problem with boats.
Exactly what CV's do you have and how many and what size are the drivers. Are the boxes sealed or vented? I can probably give you some more info about subs if I have the specs on your speakers. Vented or bass reflex enclosures don't usually mate that well with subs unless the manufacturer designs them specifically to work with each other. The best use of subs is with the smaller sealed speakers that have very limited bass to begin with because they don't interfere with each other in the crossover region. What a lot of people don't realize is that a large component of the sound of a bass instrument is really more in the mid and treble in the form of the transient attack. When you hit a bass drum or pluck the string of a bass guitar the higher transients hit you before the low bass and that is what we want to get right first..you can really give up a lot of bottom end if you get that initial slam....don't worry we'll get it eventually.
Stan |
| Bass reinforcement from room boundaries. | estan
Apr 7, 2001 12:03 AM | | John...what are the power specs on your Carver...also what is the sensitivity of the CV's. usually it looks something like...
92db at 1watt per meter...
see if you can find that and also the measurements of the box.
I'm ok for the summer...I live on my boat at the ocean and I have my Jeep.
Ya gotta get free beer...it's your right ...or bring your own.
I've got a few big holes in me from some bike accidents so my wife knows the score.... but I have this reoccuring dream that I have a Norton Atlas sitting in a barn somewhere just waiting for me...
Stan |
| sleepy | estan
Apr 7, 2001 1:53 AM | | it's 5 am here i'll get to you tomorrow...stan |
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