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|   An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | Dougman
Apr 17, 2001 11:45 PM | | Well, My McIntosh MC2120 amp arrived today. Barely. It was quite apparent looking at the horribly mangled box on my front porch, covered with "Contents Repackaged by the US Post Office" tape and stickers, that this was not going to be the type of arrival that I was hoping for. To make a long story short, this 60+ lb. Amplifier had merely been wrapped in a plastic bag and put into a single box, filled with foam peanuts, by my seller. While this type of packing might be adequate for a 10 pound item, it is no way sufficient for a 60 pound beast of a power amp, as it was free to move around inside the box, and obviously shifted amongst the foam peanuts in transit, knocked itself off of the shelf it was riding on, and went for a rockin roll, while bursting it's container. Upon opening the resealed crumpled box, I was greated by an MC2120 that looked like it had been hit with a sledgehammer on 4 different corners, including the two upper rear heatsinks, one of which had the back fins bent in around 1.5 inches, the other bent in around 1/2 inch. The right side of the face plate (3/16" cast aluminum, no less) had the last 1 inch of the top corner corner bent at around a 45 degree angle, and a more gradual bend on the bottom of the plate of perhaps 20 degrees.
And, since the plastic wrapping had been destroyed during the ordeal, the amp itself was just sitting loose among the peanuts, hundreds of which had lodged inside the fins of the heat sinks, or pieces of which somehow squeezed their way through the metal cages around the circuitry. Well, after removing the bottom plate and the metal cages, I spent about an hour with a knife and tweezers removing bits of foam peanuts from the amp's innards, many of which had caught on the various exposed terminal posts or soldered connections of the amp's circuit boards. After an hour of this, and a detailed visual inspection, I was satisfied that there were no cracked leads or solder joints, nor any loose connections, nor stray bits of foam peanut on any surface that might heat up in use, I put the hood back on and prepared myself for the worst. I connected up a set of speakers, and a tuner+preamp, and hit the power switch. Well, the front panel indicator light bulbs didn't go on, but all else is working great. It sounds great, despite it's very brutal battle scars. So, now, I'm in negotiation with the seller, to determine if he will credit me a portion of the purchase price, since I bought a MC2120 in excellent condition, and recieved one that spent too much time in direct contact with a concrete surface. And, the fact is that the U.S. post office contends that they received the item from Canada Post (the seller was in Ontario) already out of it's inadequate container. It is unclear even WHO would pay a claim if any shipper could be held responsible, especially when it was clearly NOT properly packed. So, barring a reasonable settlement from the seller, my only recourse will be to leave negative feedback. But, at least, I have a GREAT SOUNDING amplifier that is now an UNDENIABLE conversation piece. John Cameron Swayze would be proud of this baby.
BTW, it SOUNDS great. In conjunction with the Apt/Holman pre-amp, it is totally natural and transparent. Subtlety and invisibility is the only way to describe the sound quality of this tandem. The gear just recedes completely into the background, and lets the music come to the forefront. |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | Richard
Apr 18, 2001 4:12 AM | | Let's bomb Canada!!!!and the Chinese!!!!!! |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | sak
Apr 18, 2001 8:11 AM | | Dougman- I'm so sorry to hear your story.
Contact eBay. They automatically insure purchases for up to $200. I don't know whether this applies only to purchases whose price is <$200, or whether they will insure the first $200 of the purchase price.
Also, they have some sort of dispute resolution. Don't know how effective it is, as I haven't had to use it (yet). The closest I came was with an MC250 that was mailed (from the US) and didn't arrive for over a month. Both the seller and I were tense, to say the least. Anyway, one day it just arrived! And, it hadn't been mailed with insurance.
For expensive stuff in the future I'll use eBay's escrow service.
Again, sorry about your experience. Let us know how it turns out.
-sak |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | Dougman
Apr 18, 2001 9:10 AM | | Actually, I'm well aware of those services. Escrow is only available for > $500 purchases. This was slightly under that amount. Also, I don't yet know if I have a dispute with the seller, and given our very cordial correspondence before the item arrived, I am very prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I am convinced that he truly had no experience shipping an item of this vast weight (> 60 pounds), and didn't understand how much more care and sturdiness in packaging that it would require as compared to your typical 20 pound amp. As I said, the Amp is fully functional, although it has tremendous cosmetic damage due to it's bad journey in an inadequate box. I only sent the seller the information about the condition of the product on arrival late last night (including several digital photos of the package on arrival, and the Amp, while still in the box, and upon removal from the box). If the seller offers me a partial refund (I'd be satisfied if, given it's condition on arrival, If I could get the cost of it down to around $250-$300, rather than the $443 I bid for it) then we won't have any dispute at all, just a vendor making good on a product that was damaged in delivery. I think that would be aproximately the fair market value of the amp in its working, but seriously battle-scarred condition. Simply returning the item to him would cost around $60 in shipping, and he wouldn't be able to sell the thing for more than that anyways. Besides, I bought it to use, not to sell, and I actually think that the fact that it is completely functional given it's obvious damage gives it some character and obvious conversational value, and I would have no issue with putting it in my main home theater system as the driver of my main speaker pair, where it was slated to find its home before it's unplanned adventure in shipping. So, If we can reach an accommodation about my actual cost equating the REAL market value of this amp in its present state, I won't have any dispute at all with the seller. |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | sak
Apr 18, 2001 10:59 AM | | Dougman-
Didn't mean to jump to any conclusions about your negotiations with the seller. My eBay transactions have always been fine. I'd hope (!) that anybody who sells McIntosh equipment on eBay would stand behind it.
Just wanted to be sure that you were aware of eBay's help, just in case...
You're attitude is great. I especially like your viewpoint that you'll have a good story about your poor amp.
--sak |
| oops.. should be "your viewpoint" not "you're" nt | sak
Apr 18, 2001 11:03 AM | | nt |
| Negotiations are not going so well at present | Dougman
Apr 18, 2001 12:47 PM | | So far, he's offerred me either $50 credit, or he'll take it back and refund my money EXCEPT for shipping each way. The latter alternative is just flat out stupid for both of us - I'll end up over $120 in the hole on shipping alone (not to mention the hour I spent extracting foam peanuts from the Amp's innards and another half hour it will take to PROPERLY pack the thing, and he'll end up with an amp worth less than $300 after reimbursing me $443 ASSUMING he actually sent me my money back once I shipped him back the amp. He seems to think that the thing is alot cheaper to get parts for than it actually is.
I told him that my final offer is a $100 refund (which is FAR less than the selling value has dropped) or he sends me a replacement Front Panel and Heat Sinks (which if he can find the parts at all, will set him back more than $100 - unless he has a dead unit to scrounge from). Otherwise, I'll take my lumps and ream him on his feedback. |
| If I may interject... | Markw*
Apr 18, 2001 2:03 PM | | To put something of that size and bulk in a shoddy package like that is either the work of someone who does not care or is the work of an idiot. Are you his first and last sale? Pity any other poor fools who did or will buy from him.
I think you are being more than generous about this. Part of the McMagic is the beautiful cosmetics of these units. |
| Actually, his feedback was pretty good (& I vote for idiot). | Dougman
Apr 18, 2001 3:02 PM | | He had 26 Positive, and 2 Neutrals which were explainable. The issue is, this guy has clearly never sold something of this value and weight before. Most of what he has sold seem to be under $200 items, and certainly nothing close to this heavy. His packaging was very typical of what one sees in 10-20 lb. stereo equipment. It would have been sufficient for such an item. If this had been a MC2105 or MC2125, it would have been much worse, since those have glass front panels with the big blue meters. The MC2125 is functionally identical to the MC2120, except for those meters and the glass front, and for those cosmetics alone, commands a $200-$300 premium in the market. The same impacts that bent the aluminum front panel on this thing would have SHATTERED the front panel of those unit. Now that I realize that I am going to be keeping this unit, it's looks are growing on me. Kind of like a badge of courage that can be shown off. I can't think of much that BETTER articulates the robust nature of how these things are built than the fact that this thing just sounds SWEET, despite the obviously brutal journey it has taken. Of course, I still think I am entitled to a partial refund, since this guy's incompetence has clearly lessened the market value of my unit. |
| He accepted my proposal and we settled | Dougman
Apr 19, 2001 5:36 PM | | He refunded me $100 and I'm keeping the Amp. |
| One more point and Ebay lesson: | Dougman
Apr 18, 2001 9:25 AM | | One major lesson that I learned is that there is a BIG difference between buying an item that must be trans-shipped from Canada to the U.S., (especially a heavy, high value item) than in buying within the U.S. on eBay. The main issue is this: In the US, FedEx Ground and UPS are known package handling services, with economical pricing, straghtforward tracking, insurance, and predicatble routing. Because of Customs issues, they are NOT economical to use between Canada and the U.S. The only cost effective solution is the tandem of Canada Post and the U.S. Post Office. This is not too bad for an inexpensive, light weight item, as long as it arrives OK. But if something happens, it becomes a dispute over responsibility and controlling law, and there is NO realistic way to get satisfaction from the carrier. In the U.S. FedEx and UPS both are in business to satisfy customers (not quasi-government agencies) and hence, they can be dealt with in a reasonable manner. So, one must seriously think twice when buying any type of high value item that needs to be trans-shipped across the US/Canada border. In retrospect, I could have gotten a similar condition MC2120 amp at a similar price within the U.S., as my winning bid price WAS within the typical range that they sell for (even if it was at the low end, it was no more than $25 below the price that two other MC2120s in fine shape sold for the next week (including one that was won by Bruhala on this board). So, no more bids on items being sold from Canada on anything other than very inexpensive, or otherwise unattainable items. |
| One more point and Ebay lesson: | sak
Apr 18, 2001 7:07 PM | | Dougman-
I admire your attitude. I don't know if I could be as tolerant. It's one thing for your amp to be messed up cosmetically because it was packed poorly. It's another thing altogether for the seller to refuse responsibility. To me, his attitude would affect the value of the amp (subjectively) even more than the cosmetic damage.
I'd probably want to return the amp, and insist that he pay for shipping one way. If he'd refuse, I'd bring eBay into it.
Of course, once you got your refund (up front, since I'm sure that he didn't ship the amp to you before he received payment) you could ship it back to the seller in the same box that it came in. (Just joking, I wouldn't treat a Mac amp that way.)
-sak |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | moon
Apr 18, 2001 9:45 AM | | Hey Dougman - I'm also sorry to hear about the BIG CRUNCH.
I know that many of us here have had this same kind of thing happen to them. There's nothing worse than waiting for weeks for that vintage piece of gold to arrive & then find out that some numb skull decided to play basketball with the package before you get it.
Hope it all works out for ya.
mOOn |
| Hey Dougman, howsabout... | B. Freeman
Apr 18, 2001 11:25 AM | | How about posting a photo or two of you battle scarred McIntosh. Might make for a good wallpaper image for some of us. |
| I tried, but it's not in a website, so I don't know how to do it | Dougman
Apr 18, 2001 12:29 PM | | I also posted one shot in the Photo Gallery, but it wasn't there yet. |
| Photos of the McIntosh Misadventure | Dougman
Apr 19, 2001 12:01 AM | | Take a look at these:
The box, as I first saw it:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1649791&a=12629549&p=46835266
First glimpse upon opening the box:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1649791&a=12629549&p=46835261
The Front Panel:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1649791&a=12629549&p=46835256 |
| Photos of the McIntosh Misadventure | ckelly
Apr 19, 2001 12:37 AM | | Dougman
All I can say is that in the end this proves vintage audio equipment is built like a tank =)
It is a great way to convince people that vintage equipment is built to last forever (or at least survive a direct impact from a nuclear weapon).
I hope you can come up with a solution with the person that sold you the amp.
regards
Christopher
BTW your story reminds me of a Marantz Ad in classic-audio.com: |
| Love the Ad Chris! (nt). | moondog
Apr 19, 2001 5:42 AM | | |
| Photos of the McIntosh Misadventure | moondog
Apr 19, 2001 5:48 AM | | Damn Man!!! It hurts just to look at it!
I did like the WE CARE lit next to the amp though. (classic).
You should frame that one for sure!
Again... Good Luck.
moon |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | Paul
Apr 18, 2001 7:33 PM | | Hello:
You are definately being more than a gentleman regarding the damage to
the Mac amp you purchased. IMHO, the seller owes you at least a 50% refund due to his poor packing. I have sold MANY heavy items with ebay and pack with an eye towards the golden rule: "pack like I was buying it".
In the future, may I suggest you email a seller first and inquire to their beliefs as to what constitutes good packaging. What has worked well for me is I tell the seller I am interested in bidding on their item , tell them my username, and state that I will only accept an item if wrapped on all sides with a minimum of 4" of bubblewrap.
If your seller will not oblige this request then move on. I've been on ebay going on 3 years, I don't sell a lot, but I sell quality and proper packaging. Anybody curious to "check up" on me my username is "mrhifi".
Best Regards,
Paul |
| re: An Ebay Cautionary Tale, and an endorsement - Mac 1 arrives: | Dougman
Apr 18, 2001 11:11 PM | | The fact is, once the guy has your money, you as a buyer have very little leverage, beyond the threat of negative feedback. Ebay as a venue is all gear toward giving the benefit of the doubt to sellers, because they are the folks that Pay Ebay. Also, the buyer protection tops out at $175, and they make you jump through hoops to get it. Not to mention the fact that you must wait 30-60 days to actually do anything. There ARE no rules requiring they give you a refund, and nobody EVER will give you a refund BEFORE you return the item. The ONLY thing a buyer can rely on is the integrity of the seller, and how much they value the franchise of their own reputation. It is just my rotten luck that the first really bad experience I have had on eBay is with the most expensive item that I have ever purchased on the site. |
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