|   AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Mac-2 is a DOA!!!!!!!!!!!!! | Dougman
Apr 20, 2001 11:22 AM | | This one was an older MC2100. It arrived in a shockingly small box, the size of a ream of paper (ream being the operative word, here)
There was a hard foam panel on the bottom, and some folded (not crumpled) newspapers on the top and sides. Essentially, the packing used the structural shape of the AMP itself as bracing. So, it wouldn't have the problems that the first Mac had in transit, but rather, a high susceptibility to vibration and impact. I was concerned as soon as I saw the box, since I KNEW it couldn't have been sufficiently padded, there was just not enough space. I wasn't present when it was delivered, but even if I had been, I couldn't have made a claim with FedEx there because there was no visible damage to the container OR the amp. And I also knew that if there WAS damage, it would, once again, be due to inadequate packing. NOTE - this was bought from a different person (in the U.S., at least).
Out of the box, It LOOKED OK! No signs of impact. I was still worried about vibration effects, however, and I was right. When I plugged it up, however, there was an IMMEDIATE short circuit (there's no power switch, I used one on an external surge suppressor)- I got a brutally load humming sound, and a puff of smoke coming from the front amplifier circuit board that rises above the two front heat sinks. I, of course, IMMEDIATELY powered it down and unplugged it.
There were no shorts on the outside. Since I work in electronics, I did then open the case to see what was what inside. What I found was an item that had dust balls from 20+ years accumulated, and some loose wires touching the circuit board where the short had occurred, and some char marks. After tieing off the wires that had obviously caused the short (NOT reconnecting them), what I have is an amp that works on the right channel, but not the left. It also works in mono mode powering both speakers. But it is clear that the short fried the left channel input circuitry. I actually had a schematic and service manual that came with the unit, and I was able to correctly connect the wires that were loose inside. However, the result is the same. The left channel is dead, although at least there is no short anymore.
When I contacted THIS seller, it's "Oh, the item worked perfectly when we sent it" She, of course, contends now that I broke it. Then, she told me to put a claim in with FedEx. I did (they are going to inspect the unit and packaging today), but I DON'T expect them to pay it, because ANYONE can tell that this was inadequately packed. But, at least after that happens, I will have expert evidence of the inadequacy of the packing. So, I expect that THIS one is going into the eBay Fraud Insurance pile - However, they will only pay up to $175, and this unit cost me $395 with shipping. At the end of the day, I will be able to clean this up into a functional Monoblock, or perform a couple of hours of surgery and invest around $50 in parts to salvage it as a stereo unit. But, it is in pretty lousy shape internally anyways, and I'd really like to return this one to the seller, or get a FedEx claim reimbursement (it WAS insured for $400). We'll see if the seller accepts a return for refund after the FedEx claim comes back with a finding of inadequate packing.
MAJOR LESSON: Interrogate the seller on how they plan to pack these heavy, expensive items. Who knew there is this much incompetency out there?
About the only GOOD news is, Today I just won the bidding on a vintage Luxman M113 power amp for $137.50 (they usually sell for over $200, the last one went for $275) that will probably be a better, more durable unit than this McIntosh would have been anyways.
Anybody want an MC2100 useable for parts, or as a monoblock in lousy condition? |
| re: AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Mac-2 is a DOA!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ruffscruff
Apr 20, 2001 11:39 AM | | This ain't gonna' help any, but I thank you for the detailed posting. I've bought several things from ebay and haven't had a problem, but they were all kind of unbreakable. Right now I'm looking for a 2nd MC2300 as a mate for the one I've had for the past 25+ years. It may come from ebay or not, but in any case you probably know they weigh about 130 pounds. Packing and shipping is something I plan to talk a lot about before making a purchase. In addition to that, now that I read your posting, I need to ask if it's been hacked. Thanks again - fran dicarlo |
| That Sucks!!!!!!!!! | ckelly
Apr 20, 2001 12:29 PM | | Doug, I feel your pain.
I really hope this one also works out for you.
You have also sparked some concerns in me, as I had always wanted to get stuff at ebay and have it sent here (Chile), as good vintage audio here is as rare as hen's teeth.
Christopher |
| I really never had any serious problems before the 2 Macs!! | Dougman
Apr 20, 2001 12:39 PM | | In general, it seems that these things are just too heavy to rely on standard practices to ship, and the folks who don't NORMALLY deal in this type of equipment just don't know it. You really need to work with people who KNOW what they are doing shipping heavy stuff like this.
On the other hand, for less extreme gear, it's probably much less risky. |
| I really never had any serious problems before the 2 Macs!! | ckelly
Apr 20, 2001 7:06 PM | | Hmmm,
something to have in mind when buying, at least when buying thru ebay.
I hope everything works out.
Christopher |
| Feeling a BIT better after listening to sweet sounds from Mac-1 | Dougman
Apr 20, 2001 10:31 PM | | I am fully expecting to take a hit of at least half the value of this second McIntosh, at the end of the day. At least the beautiful sound coming from the FIRST one, and the fact that we DID eventually settle on a pretty reasonable middle ground on THAT ONE has got me in a more relaxed mood. Plus, the great price I got on the Luxman amp that will replace the second unit means that, at the end of the day, I am likely to not have spent any more than I initially intended for the main amplifiers in the two systems which these McIntosh amps were intended to go. I'm actually going to do some serious A/B comparisons between Mac-1 and the Luxman to see how much difference I can hear, and which I prefer. After all is said and done, I might come out just as contented as I went in, or, I could just feel cursed by the Gods (If the Luxman has a bad trip toward my house, I'll KNOW its a curse). |
| Feeling a BIT better after listening to sweet sounds from Mac-1 | moondog
Apr 21, 2001 7:13 AM | | You did ask the seller of the Luxman to send it to you in an iron vault full of massive amounts of foam protection, RIGHT? |
| re: AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Mac-2 is a DOA!!!!!!!!!!!!! | sak
Apr 21, 2001 8:02 AM | | Dougman-
Sorry to hear about Mac-2.
I checked out the ad for your Luxman. I think you got a GREAT deal. And, the seller looks good. He had enough sense to buy a Luxman for his own use, has taken care of it, and appreciates good equipment.
Nevertheless, as he says that he accepts MasterCard and Visa, you might consider using a credit card. If anything doesn't work out, you can always explain the situation to the credit card company and they'll void the transaction.
BTW, how are you using your two amps? Is this for HT, and one is for the rear channels? Bi-amping?
If this is for HT, pretty fancy. (Of course, I'm using an MC250 for my rear channels, so I shouldn't laugh.)
Hope this one works out. Looks ok, though.
--sak |
| They are being used in 2 different systems | Dougman
Apr 21, 2001 8:44 AM | | Both of these amps are going to be used as the main power amps in dual purpose Home Theater/Music Systems. In each system, I'm using a separate 2 channel Amp/Pre-amp to drive the mains and connect to my Analog audio sources, and a Dolby/DTS receiver to decode DVD and drive the center/surround channels. The CD players will be sent to whichever pre-amp sounds better, either the new digital receivers via a digital connection, or the older 2 channel pre-amp via the CD player's DACs. (The CD players are a Nakamichi MB-8 and an MB-10)
As for the Credit Card, he really means that he takes them through PayPal. I have already told him that I wanted the thing packed like his life depended on it, and that I'd pay him extra for the bubble wrap, and not to skimp. It's OK, I am quite convinced that there is a specific pathology on the McIntosh Issues:
People who often sell lower value stuff on eBay, do not generally deal in these heavy high value items think that they can pack them just like any old 10-20 pound item, and obviously, you cannot. They require special handling, and failure to do it generally has very severe consequences. Plus, when you get these mom & pop sellers who are used to dealing in $20 - $100 items, and suddenly, somone is going after them for a refund on a $400-$500 item, it freaks them out and they suddenly lose all of their instincts for customer service because they are faced with a BIG loss, rather than a minor one. The short answer is, to only buy big, heavy, high value amplifiers from people who are used to selling them in the normal course of their business, or enthusiasts who both understand the value/sensitivity of this gear and care about it. |
| They are being used in 2 different systems | estan
Apr 21, 2001 8:55 PM | | Hey Doug...sorry about all the bad luck. I think you should insist on double boxes for any gear you are shipping. I have sent a lot of big amps on some pretty long trips and always double box with at least 3" of air on all six sides. I use foam spacers between the boxes and the inner box uses 1" bubble wrap with at least a 3" wrap on all sides. Never had a problem when packed this way. However whenever anything was single boxed it was a guaranteed disaster....
I am sure you can repair Amp-2...how bad is it ?
Probably easy enough to get a replacement board or repair that one.
Good luck,
Stan
Stan |
| re: AAAARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!! Mac-2 is a DOA!!!!!!!!!!!!! | Brian Levy
Apr 22, 2001 3:57 PM | | Seems strange that there is no visable damage to the box or unit. The 2100 is a brute of an amp which I've seen several that looked like they were hit by Volvos and still worked. It seems more plausible that the unit was not functioning when sold if there is no visible damage to the unit.
The 2100, like the 250 is side heavy and requires care in packing. Though it is a bit more expensive, I have found the Mc shipping containers are still the better way for Mc pieces. As an alternative an inner box with cardboard to hold the amp in place then in an outer box with at least 2-3" or foam block has worked for me for years with all components such as amps, preamps and tuners. I've received equip wrapped in bubble wrap that b/c of the sharp edges has torn right through it.
The answer is that acceptance should always be conditioned upon receipt and acceptance in any deal. If the unit comes in trashed, doesn't work, or is not as represented, not accepted and seller is required to accept it back. Does require either an honest dealer or escrow arrangement. While cheap is great a little insurance is well worth the few added dollars.
The 2100 is worth repairing. There are plenty of these around ready to scavange for parts b/c of their physical condiditon. |
| I actually DO believe the short was caused by a loose wire | Dougman
Apr 22, 2001 4:40 PM | | and this short is what made the unit fail. The question, of course, is did the loose wire occur during the shipping of the product, and if it did, was this due to inadequate packaging, rough handling in transit, or just dumb bad luck. The latter two reasons would mean that FedEx Insurance should pay for it. The first reason, along with the possibility that the item was broken initially, would mean that the seller should make good.
I tend to side with excessive vibration due to inadequate packing in transit. And remember, I've seen the innards of the unit, and the box. There WERE loose wires in there. And when they were tied off, the right channel worked in it's entirety, as did the left channel output stage. I'm pretty sure that the short blew out the left channel input stage, because the left channel was humming the instant that I turned it on, and the arc/smoke came from the front vertical circuit board that contains the left channel input circuitry. |
| I actually DO believe the short was caused by a loose wire | estan
Apr 22, 2001 8:59 PM | | gee...it sounds to me like the shipper is responsible. It is not easy to break a wire loose in a Mac especially with no visable damage to the box or the case. I don't buy it...I think someone was playing repairman and fu@ked up...
Were these loose wires originally soldered to the board? It sounds like a broken ground and a B+ just hanging loose. It would take quite a shock to break a good solder connection.
I once received an inadequately packed 100+ pound subwoofer that was dropped hard and the cabinet corners were smashed. One of the woofer cones separated from the surround and the crossover came loose and a sandcast resistor was rendered useless but the packing material was also destroyed and you could see clearly where it was dropped.
It just seems a bit fishy to me...
Stan |
| There were some pretty crappy solder joints in there | Dougman
Apr 22, 2001 10:22 PM | | This was on a wire going from the left channel gain pot to the socket for the riser card between the front 2 heat sinks. I wouldn't be surprised if the wire was knocked loose during a time that riser board was removed and re-installed, or from travel. This box was essentially completely unpadded. |
| There were some pretty crappy solder joints in there | estan
Apr 22, 2001 11:27 PM | | was the riser board loose? One thing about McIntosh...the quality control is outstanding...more so than the sound. They inspected thee units many times befor shipping. Most problems occur when unauthorized service people get their grubby paws on them.
Give a call to Ryan at Audio Classics in Vestal NY and he will help you out.
Stan |
| I actually DO believe the short was caused by a loose wire | Brian Levy
Apr 23, 2001 6:35 PM | | I'm not arguing as to what casued the electrical damage but from what you are describing it seems almost impossible to comprehend what would have caused the wires to become loose without some sort of physical evidence to the shipping box or unit itself. The more you descibe it the more it sounds like a poor repair attempt. If it were a poor solder connection, it would be most likely as resolder job. Having been to McIntosh many times during the era of the 2100 production I saw too many qc rejections for the smallest detail, including a smudge on the chrome, a small chip on the autoformer. The ladies (predominately ladies did the soldering during this period) were far more critical of their own work than most of us ever would be. They were not paid by the piece or the like and eack component was tracked even to the solderer so if something was rejected further up the line for a poor solder joint, they knew who to talk to.
You of course have the unit so are best able to evaluate it as opposed to my speculations. I do hope you get it resolved as to having the unit fixed or the price adjusted. It would be rather upsetting to me if I were in your place and more than likely less of a gentleman than you have been considering this is your second go around. I tend to ask once then do what I was trained for, take it to court and let a judge decide. |
| At the end of the day, the eBay Buyer has very few tools | Dougman
Apr 23, 2001 10:11 PM | | All that I can do is the following:
1) I have yet to leave feedback, and the seller knows it
2) FedEx claims department is currently in possession of the unit, and will either grant my damage claim, or give me a written report explaining why they did not. Assuming they do not, the report is my most sigificant piece of evidence which will then be used as follows:
2a) I will appeal to the seller's sense of self preservation and intelligence,
2b) Failing that - Ebay's fraud and/or dispute resolution mechanisms will be employed.
The reality is, logically, this is the progression that I must follow in order to actually have any realistic chance of financial recovery. Venting anger will not change that, and any other means will actually end up costing me more (especially in terms of the value of my own time, as well as money, than I could hope to recover).
Of course I'm not happy about this. But, I am cognizant of the fact that eBay as a venue has enabled me to save perhaps $2500 - $3000 on the audio gear that I've gotten. If this particular transaction has an impact of -$300 to that total, I am philosophical about it, since I have no choice in the matter BUT to be philosophical about it. |
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